After finding the courage to say “bye-bye” to her corporate marketing career, Kathy Goughenour built a 6-figure virtual assistant business from her tiny house in the middle of a forest.

Kathy Goughenour Leader Assistant Virtual Expert Training

In this episode, Kathy shares her story about leaving a fortune 500 company to start her own virtual assistant business. She has a lot of great tips on working remotely, running your own business, pricing your services, finding your niche, and why specializing is the way to go.


What one woman can do, another can do.

– Kathy Goughenour


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Kathy Goughenour


After finding the courage to say “bye-bye” to her corporate marketing career, Kathy Goughenour built a 6-figure virtual assistant business from her tiny house in the middle of a forest. Today, she teaches professional women how to create their own work-at-home VA businesses so they can enjoy the freedom, flexibility and financial security they desire and deserve. Kathy also offers VA Matchmaking sessions to business owners interested in working with Expert VAs® and Virtual Experts®. Kathy and her Expert VA® and Virtual Expert® Training program have been featured in Forbes, The Huffington Post, Good Housekeeping, All You, and The Wealthy Freelancer. For more information, visit


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Kathy Goughenour 0:00
Hi, I’m Kathy Goughenour and today’s leadership quote comes from me what one woman can do, another can do.

Podcast Intro 0:14
The Leader Assistant Podcast exists to encourage and challenge assistants to become competent game changing leader assistant.

Jeremy Burrows 0:26
Hey friends, thanks for tuning in to Episode 105. Be sure to check out the show notes at Also, if you haven’t yet, please join our Slack community at And we also have a Facebook group. If you’re more into Facebook, you can go to And lastly, we have some events coming up. So to check out the event schedule. That’s All right, I hope you enjoy this episode. Thank you so much for listening and have a good one. Hey, everyone, thanks for tuning into The Leader Assistant Podcast. Today I’m speaking with Kathy Goughenour. Kathy is a virtual assistant business owner from her tiny house in the middle of a forest. And I’m really excited to chat with her about the entire world of virtual assistant remote work and all that fun stuff. So Kathy, how’s it going?

Kathy Goughenour 1:33
Hey, Jeremy, first of all, congratulations on saying my name perfectly. Most nobody is able to do that. In fact, I worked with a client as a VA for six years. And she continued to always call me Guggenheim. You got it. Awesome. So things are going good here. I’ve been, you know, it’s COVID time, July 15 2020. And I feel very fortunate, because I have basically been self isolating since 2001. By living in a national forest, and working virtually.

Jeremy Burrows 2:17
Awesome. So tell us a little bit about how you went from corporate America to work from home. running your own business.

Kathy Goughenour 2:27
Yeah. So you know, I had never had any desire to have my own business. It just wasn’t you know, I just wasn’t one of those people that grew up thinking I just can’t wait to have my own business. I grew up very middle class or lower middle class, mom and dad who went to work every single day. They did not take risks. You know, they believed in, get a job, stay in the job, get retirement. And that was where I was headed, straightforward. I worked for almost 20 years for a fortune 500 company. And I did start out there as an admin. In fact, Jeremy, I went to the very prestigious at that time back in. Well, this was 1976 I went to the very prestigious secretarial school in St. Louis called Miss hickeys. Have you ever heard of that one?

Jeremy Burrows 3:24
I haven’t actually, it’s the first.

Kathy Goughenour 3:28
Well, they’re still around. And at that time, they were incredibly prestigious. And so much so that in just nine months of going there, right after high school, I got offered three different jobs, really well paying secretarial positions and grew from there, working at the fortune 500 company into a managerial position. I was able to get all of my college education paid for through that company, which is almost unheard of these days, took full advantage of it. And then my career stalled. I mean came to a halt. And I went and asked my manager why. And he said, You laugh and smile too much. And you will never go anywhere in this company. Until you stop that. Wow. I went back to my tiny little cubicle and just cried because I was like this is me. I’m a silly goofball. And I love being joyful and happy and laughing. I really thought for a little while Jeremy. I have to change this. How do I do that? And then I don’t know how really because I’m usually back then I was not a risk taker. But I thought no, no, I’m not going to change that. I was almost 40 at the time. And you know, I didn’t know back then but after 40 You know you really Get into ageism and things like that, if I had known more about that I might not have had as much courage. But I put together a game plan to quit in six months. At that six month point, I took my resignation letter in to my boss and told them I was quitting. He said, you’re making the biggest mistake you’ll ever make in your life, you will never make this kind of money again. And you know, I was I was making really good money, as a marketing manager there had really good benefits and all of that. And it irritated me so much, that he didn’t think I was capable, that I said, just off the top of my head, you’re wrong, I will not only make more than this, I will make at least twice as much as this. And then that became my goal. I started my virtual assistant business by accident, quite honestly, because my husband was traveling a lot. And so since I had quit my job, I began traveling with him. And every time we’d move, I would get online and find our home, the next home. And I began, you know, I’m quite opinionated, I began complaining to the real estate agents I was speaking with about their websites and their marketing. And one of them said, Well, why don’t you do something about it? Would you fix it for me? I was like, Sure. So I got to work on that, and did it from my home. And I really enjoyed it. And he really liked what I was doing. My husband lost his job, we decided to move to our tiny house, here in Missouri, in the middle of nowhere, literally an hour from the closest grocery store. And I asked the real estate agent, I said, Hey, do you think it would be okay, if I do this virtually from he was in Kansas City from my house, like seven hours from Aaron, he said, Well, you already are working virtually. You’re a virtual assistant. And I’m like, what? What’s that? And this was in 2001. And once he told me that I began researching, and indeed it was a thing. And after that, it’s just history because my business began growing and growing and growing. And it just a couple of years, I had doubled my income from my corporate job. Wow.

Jeremy Burrows 7:29
That’s awesome. So did you kind of as you got into the rabbit hole of of virtual assistant world and did the research, did you find maybe one or two things that really now looking back really catapulted that business that you could share with others who are interested in starting their own?

Kathy Goughenour 7:54
Yeah, so Jeremy, I will I mean, that sound like it was super easy done. And that’s not reality. Because I, you know, looking back, I can’t believe that I’m going to say this about myself, because I’m not that person anymore at all. But because I had that long career at a fortune 500 company. Because I had an undergraduate degree in marketing and an MBA, I thought, Oh, my God, I am so good. I am gonna just rock this little VA World No. And what I didn’t know, I didn’t know, I didn’t even know the differences. So I made a lot of mistakes. The first mistake that I made was very much underpricing, my services. I thought, well, I’ll just start at 15 An hour and see how it goes. And I struggled to get clients at 15 an hour, we couldn’t go lower than that I would have been I would have been a non for profit. And I almost was at 15 an hour. And what I found that I was getting more nickel and dimers, you know, people who wanted to negotiate down people who would say, can’t you do that faster? Can you do that cheaper. And fortunately, I found a business trainer and coach who coached me that if I really believed I was as good as I was, and I had I really did really well. I was amazing at what I did. And you know, Jeremy, I know you’re amazing. I know a lot of people listening to you are truly amazing at what they do. And I did you know, I believe that and she said you need to price yourself at the highest point, not the lowest point. Don’t compete on price be the highest. And oh my gosh, that scared me to death to think about doing that. But I took her advice and did my race. Search on my competitors. And I discovered that in order to be the highest priced and by the way, I was a real estate virtual assistant. So I did marketing for real estate agents across the US. And I changed my pricing from $15 an hour to $75 an hour. And my business absolutely exploded. And when I talked to people who wanted to consider hiring me, I literally asked them, what made you decide to contact me? And they said, Well, you’re the highest price, so I figured you must be the best, and I want to work with the best.

Jeremy Burrows 10:45
Well, that’s, that’s definitely a challenge that a lot of assistants I’ve talked, talked with have, because they just think, well, I don’t know anybody, or I only have one client, and I need to get a bunch of clients. So I’m gonna drop my price so that I can just get in. Yeah, but yeah, like, I agree with you that the it’s that whole perceived value of psychology that it really makes a big difference.

Kathy Goughenour 11:18
Yeah, I honestly, I would never have come up with that on my own. But, you know, when I hire a coach, and I truly believe coaches are just incredibly important to people who really want to grow their businesses grow their lives, because they can be that, like, I’m too close to it myself, right. And they can take that distance view and help you see something that you cannot see. But when I hire a coach, I only hire those who I’m going to do what they say, because I’m not going to pay somebody a lot of money to coach me and not do what they say. So I do what they say and it has paid off very well.

Jeremy Burrows 12:04
So you get to the point where you raise your price, and you got people calling you because you raise your price. How have you have you kind of spread the word further? Is it been word of mouth? Primarily? I know you’ve got some marketing background. Any tips on kind of scaling?

Kathy Goughenour 12:24
Yes, I’ve tons of tips on all of that. So let’s start. Because I know from all my research, that the number one thing people who are considering working as a virtual assistant are concerned about is how do I find get and keep clients? So my number one tip on how to find clients is first of all, you need to narrow your niche. Okay? If you want to be a general admin, do you mind if I share num per share? I don’t know about you. But I love to know numbers. Okay. So and I have done tons of research on this industry, Jeremy over the last 2000 since 2001. Okay. So general admins, they earn about $25 an hour, that is the mindset of business owners and entrepreneurs who primarily hire vas, that a at General admin top value is $25 an hour. Well, executive assistants like you, Jeremy, that’s not enough money, you know, you’re not gonna switch from being an executive assistant to getting $25 an hour, even if you get to work from home and have your own business. It’s not worth it. So what I found is when you specialize, so you go from being a general admin, to having a specialty like I did with being a real estate, VA, then you can charge a lot more. And think about doctors, for example, when you go to your general practitioner, and you have something that they’re like, Well, I think you need to see a specialist. And then you go to that specialist who charges more. It is indeed that specialist. And that’s exactly how it works across the board in any industry. When you specialize you charge more. So that’s one big tip. And then once you specialize, it’s much easier to get the word out about your business, because then people can say, Oh, you need a real estate VA. I know one rather than I know a VA, right. So and then the number one way once you’ve done those things, to get a steady flood of clients coming to you Is to brainstorm who also has the same target market as you. So I had real estate agents as my target market as my people I wanted to work with. So I brainstormed who else works with real estate agents. And I reached out to those companies, built relationships with them, referred clients to them, and they referred clients to me. So for example, real estate agents all need websites. So I researched the best real estate websites, contacted them built a relationship with them. And that wasn’t just one website company ended up sending me over 70 clients. And I had multiple other real estate website companies that I worked with, too. So what do you think about that?

Jeremy Burrows 16:01
No, that’s, that’s, that’s perfect. When did you or when you got those 70 clients? How did you get help? Like, you can’t, you can’t, I mean, maybe you can, maybe maybe you can secret, I don’t

Kathy Goughenour 16:19
know, you give us a link, and I do all that work yourself. So as my business continued to grow, one of the things that if you have not been in this industry, like I had not been, I did not realize is that your level of knowledge of how to run a business, how to market a business, and really in depth, what your client’s needs, grows and grows and grows. So you can literally grow your business into anything that you want, which is really exciting. So what I decided I wanted to do, because I got bored, I don’t know about you, Jeremy, I get easily bored, I got my corporate job where I was for 20 years, every three years, I would change jobs because I would be bored. And as a virtual assistant, you get to choose what you’re doing. So I decided, hey, you know what, I really don’t like doing that tasks, like writing blog post, loading things to websites, I got bored with that. But what I really enjoy doing is marketing and sales, bringing in those clients and that face to face with clients. So I began searching for virtual assistants that I could hire as subcontractors to do the tasks to do the work. And I focused on the marketing and the sales. Now my challenge was, I couldn’t find VAs that had the qualities I was looking for. And I read part of your book yesterday, which congratulations on your book, I absolutely love it, everybody should grab a copy as fast as possible. Because you have the exact same philosophy as I do, which is what I’m looking for. And And honestly, what everyone is looking for whether it says an employee EA or as an independent contractor, VA or VA subcontractor, they’re looking for somebody who is pro active profesh, you know, and a problem solver. Because when you get somebody who has those three qualities, then they’re going to run their business on their own, and you’re not going to have to manage them and oversee them. And in fact, when they’re really good at being proactive, they will literally help you grow your business. So for example, I have someone on my team right now actually have many people on my team right now, who are proactive, but one in particular that I want to share with you. Her name is Laurie. And she came to me a year ago and said, you know, you’re spending $1,000 a month on a program called Active Campaign to send out emails, and you have another system that you’re using for your membership site. And that membership site has email delivery, at no additional cost. Why don’t we move you over there? And we did. And I’m saving $1,000 a month now because she was proactive. So that’s what I’m looking for. And I’m looking out there and this was back in 2004 you know not many VAs were around at that time. I couldn’t find any that had those qualities. So I began training people myself and if First, I trained them just to work with me. And I ended up with a team of five VAs who were doing the work. And that’s when I went up to 110,000 in income into the six figure realm for the first time. And then something dawned on me, hey, I could charge for this training. Because a lot of people were then coming to me and going, how are you doing what you’re doing, I want to learn how to do it. And so that in 2008, is actually when I began developing my own training program for virtual assistants. And in fact, it very much coincided with everybody probably knows what happened in 2008, the real estate market bubble burst. And I went from having 110,000 in revenue annually down to 25,000, in revenue annually, in 30 days, I dropped that fast. So the good news is, once you know how to get clients how to work as a VA, you can pivot very quickly. So I pivoted to working during the same kind of work marketing, but for professional speakers, and instead, and in 30 days, I was back up working at the same level I already had them.

Jeremy Burrows 21:26
So let’s talk about the like, you know, you pivoted from real estate to speakers. Let’s talk about how, like maybe a few other examples of specific niche.

Kathy Goughenour 21:42
Yeah, absolutely. Actually lots of examples of niches. Yeah. How can people

Jeremy Burrows 21:46
discover which niches for them?

Kathy Goughenour 21:52
Yeah, so first of all, my belief is when you decide to start your own virtual assistant business, that’s when it’s time for you to ask yourself the question, what do I really enjoy doing? What do I really want my life to look like? Because you now have the opportunity to do that, where in a lot of corporations, they tell you what you’re going to do and where you’re going to work. Right. So that is step one, is to really think about what do you enjoy? And the broadest? First step is Do you enjoy more creative things? Or more technical things? Right. So let me give you a couple of examples of things that are creative. Do you like to write? Do you like to use Do you know what that is? Jeremy? Yeah, Canva. Okay. So it’s where you can easily go in and design a maze amazing looking images. So do you like to do that? Do you like to do social media marketing, which is also pretty creative? And then on the opposite end, which is technical stuff, okay. Do you love to. And, you know, I call it figuring out puzzles, on how to make the backend of software programs work. So how to go in and set up a web page, how to go in and make sure that the button that somebody clicks, takes them where it’s supposed to go. And then in between those two are kind of a mix, things like bookkeeping. And marketing can fall in there, too. So first, think about that. Which creative end Do you fall into creative or techie, or somewhere in between. And then I actually have a long list of things that you can think about from each of those. But you can begin to narrow that down. So for example, I knew that I liked to write. And I and I loved marketing. So I knew that’s where I wanted to go. Now, if you’re already in a career that you love something about, think about what that is that you love, because that usually is very easy to transition into a virtual assistant career. So for example, I was a marketer. At my corporate job. I have been a marketer ever since as a virtual assistant. And now in my training business, I’m also still a marketer because that is something I love. I hate everything techie. I’m like a technophobe. I can’t even tell you Jeremy how long it took me to get this Skype running. So I could talk to you here. So I do nothing. attempt that. Exactly. I do nothing technical, okay. And when you work with clients, all you have to do is say, you know, this is what I specialize in, I can help you with this. And then if they ask you, as they often do, hey, can you set up a WordPress website for me? And I’m like, No, I, that’s not what I specialize in. But I know someone I can refer you to? Who can do that? Was that helpful? Did that clarify that a little bit?

Jeremy Burrows 25:36
It did. How about another level though? So let’s say you, you do enjoy setting up WordPress sites? How do you find kind of even another layer of niche to where you said, oh, you know, I helped real estate agents sit around pro site where I help, right auto shop, small business, auto shop, businesses, their websites, how did you? Or how would you look to kind of even niche down even further?

Kathy Goughenour 26:09
Yeah, perfect example. And I love that, let’s use the WordPress website. So if you Google, WordPress websites, for real estate agents, you’re going to find companies that do only that WordPress websites for authors, WordPress websites, for whatever, health coaches, you’re gonna find companies who specialize just in that. And by the way, when you find other companies that are already doing what you’re thinking about doing, that is a good thing. That means that there is a need, that doesn’t mean Oh, my gosh, there’s already a lot of people doing it, this wouldn’t be good for me. If you find no one doing something, okay. Like WordPress websites for homeless people, you’re not gonna find anybody doing that? Yeah. Don’t go there. So you are looking for things that people are already doing, do your research on those people see what they’re charging, see how they’re talking to that industry, because you really do want to continue to niche down just like you’re talking about, the further you can niche down, the more money you can charge. And the easier it is to stay on top of what’s happening. Because everything changes so quickly.

Jeremy Burrows 27:27
Yeah, that’s great. So okay, so let’s, let’s talk about a little bit about your Virtual expert training, and kind of what differentiates your training from other VA training out there? And then how people can kind of look into that and find out more, and get a hold of you, sir.

Kathy Goughenour 27:51
So Jeremy, one of the challenges that I found clients of mine who came on to build VA businesses, one of the challenges they were struggling with, was to get potential clients to understand their value. So remember, when I said General, admin VAs couldn’t get above $25 an hour? That’s because the perception of business owners and entrepreneurs out there is a general admin is valued at $25 an hour? Well, once I began doing research, what I discovered what was the term virtual assistant is synonymous in people’s minds with general admin. And that’s why people even though they had specialized, were struggling to get paid more, as long as they were using that term, virtual assistant to describe what they did. So one another coach I had, I have been very fortunate to hire really good coaches who have really helped me with this stuff. We had a long conversation about this. And she said, I want you to go out and do some more research. I want you to ask people without giving them any explanation. I want you to ask them, What would you pay a virtual assistant? And then ask them? What would you pay a virtual expert? So I did that research. And every person I asked would say, a virtual assistant. Oh, yeah. 1520 2525 Max for a virtual assistant. And then I would say, Okay, how about a virtual expert? And their eyes would light up and they would look at me and go, Oh, Virtual expert. More like 35 $45 an hour. And I was just absolutely flabbergasted because I’m thinking, I didn’t even tell them what the difference was, but yet they’re willing to pay more just for that terminology change. Ah, so I trademarked the term virtual expert. And that is what I now teach people to become. And what’s the difference between the two? While the Virtual expert is that specialized person who goes as deep into their specialty as they can, they become a true expert at it. And they all have those three qualities that I mentioned to you, because I teach these, they’re proactive problem solving professionals, they are viewed now at the level of other professional services, like lawyers CPAs, that type of thing. And that’s how they can command, the higher dollar value. What do you think about that? I’m going to tell you, it blew me away.

Jeremy Burrows 30:49
Oh, yeah. I mean, it, it relates to what I talked with a lot of EAs about when they, when they say, Listen, I’m trying to negotiate a salary increase. And a lot of the times some, especially larger corporations with, you know, large titling, and roll tears, it’s a lot related to their title. So you know, your administrative assistant, or your senior administrative assistant, or your senior executive assistant, or your Director of Operations, you know, it’s title, title is a big part of the perception, and yet the compensation.

Kathy Goughenour 31:34
Yeah, it is amazing the difference. One other thing I want to mention about that term virtual assistant, and its acronym VA, there are problems with that term now that weren’t there when the term was originally coined. So for example, I did a little research on you, and it looks like you are an E AE at a company that does AI. Is that right? Yep. So guess what has happened with the term virtual assistant?

Jeremy Burrows 32:07
Yeah, they’re calling AI. Virtual Assistant. Exactly.

Kathy Goughenour 32:10
So when someone who is not aware that a VA is a human being to first before AI came about, they automatically think that what you’re talking about is artificial intelligence. And when you Google it, that’s what comes up. So it is no longer beneficial to be found under virtual assistant. And then the acronym VA, guess what you get when you google VA, VA, Virginia, or Veterans Administration. So it is very confusing. So that’s another good reason to use a different term. Now, I certify virtual experts. But I also help them just like you were talking about, I help them come up with titles that fit their specialty. So it’s easier for them to use that. And there are so many great titles out there now, for specialties like graphic designer, right? Digital Marketer, and on and social media specialist. And to use those types of titles automatically, just like you were talking with the EA titles being different, you automatically command the attention of somebody going, Oh, yes, that’s what I need. And one other trend that has just begun developing over the past year, that is an even higher level that VAs can aspire to and are indeed achieving is a fractional. So fractional means part time, right, fractional C level person, so a fractional CFO, a fractional CMO, a fractional CEO, oh, and that commands an even higher level.

Jeremy Burrows 34:19
So the other thing I’m noticing is now that more companies are going permanently remote. Yes, it doesn’t really. It seems like it’s getting to be aware. The remote part, the virtual slash remote element is is not as distinguishable from you know what I mean? Like it’s not like oh, you’re a remote assistant versus an office assistant. Like a lot of people are remote. So the more you can be specific, like he said, social media specialist or graphic design, assistant or whatever. The more special If you can get the better.

Kathy Goughenour 35:02
Right, and so let’s let’s first of all do one more thing with your how do we niche down even further social media is a really easy one to niche down even further. So on my team, I have a LinkedIn marketing specialist. That’s all she does is LinkedIn marketing. For me, I have a Facebook ads specialist, that’s all she does is Facebook ads, I have someone who does nothing but Instagram, I have someone who does nothing but YouTube marketing. So all of those and the reason those can be individual specialties, is because they really are that unique and different. And to stay on top of what’s happening with those, you need to specialize on it. And then when somebody like me goes, Okay, I’m ready to move into LinkedIn marketing, which I decided to do last year. That’s who I’m looking for who specializes in LinkedIn. So to go back to what you were talking about, about the new embracing of remote and virtual workers, what I have really seen and of course, this thrills me to death, Jeremy, since this is the industry I’m in and that I love. There were a lot of people before this new economy. Before COVID-19 hit, there were a lot of business owners who were like me, technophobes, right, or they had totally bought into the fact that the only way that we can oversee our staff is if they’re right here in our office where we can see them. And when they work from home, they are not as efficient or productive. And when everybody was forced to go home, and work from home, then those same people who had those doubts, actually woke up and went, Oh, my gosh, this really works. And then once they saw that, in fact, the research has shown that working from home is actually an increase in productivity, not a decrease, because people are happier. They tend to work more and, and faster. A lot of different reasons to why they’re they’re more productive. Then once the business owners and the corporate people were like, Oh, this is working, then they began looking at the savings involved. And they began calculating that, oh, we could get rid of this office. And everyone could just work from home. And for that reason, and the fact that it’s looking more and more like, this is going to be a very long term recovery from COVID 1918. Before we get vaccines and things like that, working remotely working virtually, whether as an employee or as an independent contractor, which is what a virtual assistant Virtual expert is, is really the wave of the future. In fact, I’m sure you’ve seen a lot of companies that have already declared that they will not be bringing their employees back. And not even considering bringing them back until sometime in 2020 2021. If ever.

Jeremy Burrows 38:24
Yeah. Yep, it’s definitely a changed. Changed climate. A lot more. I think it’s expedited the shift to remote work for sure.

Kathy Goughenour 38:37
Absolutely, it has, which, again, thrills me, as you can imagine, because, you know, that is one of the challenges. I Jeremy, I not only am an advocate for anybody who wants to become a virtual assistant, our Virtual expert. I’m also an advocate for those businesses who are struggling to get the work done, and don’t realize that they can use an independent contractor as little or as much as they need to fill gaps or in fact, to get work done. One more stat I want to share with you is that virtual assistants and virtual experts get on the average three times more work done more productivity than and then the typical employee. And the reasoning behind that is when you’re you work as a virtual assistant Virtual expert. You turn on your clock, and you start charging only when you’re actually doing productive work. If you stop to chat, if you stop to, you know, buy something on Amazon if your phone rings and you stop to answer that. If you go to lunch, the client is not charged it because they specialize, and they’re already an expert in what they do. They’re faster at it.

Jeremy Burrows 40:05
Awesome, Kathy? Well, this is a lot of really amazing information. Definitely something for my listeners to digest and read, digest and reach out to you. If they have more questions, so how can they get a hold of you?

Kathy Goughenour 40:21
So go to

Jeremy Burrows 40:26
Awesome. Well, I will share the link in the show notes and also share your social media links as well. Thanks again for sharing your insight. And I think it’s very timely with the, again, the shift to more remote work. And people trying to diversify their income even if they have a full time job that might not be as demanding right now. And they want to add a couple of VA clients on the side. Yeah, definitely encourage everyone listening to check out Kathy’s website. Reach out to her. She’s got a lot of great wisdom to share. So Thanks, Kathy. Really appreciate it. And I’ll definitely let you get back to the forest.

Kathy Goughenour 41:15
Yeah, I apologize if you heard dogs barking or anything like that. Here in the forest. You never know what’s going to happen. Jeremy, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. You are a great interviewer.

Jeremy Burrows 41:27
Oh, well, thank you. Appreciate it. It’s been my pleasure interviewing you and we will talk soon. Thanks again for listening. Check out the show notes at See you next time.

Speaker 1 41:54
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