leader assistant podcast kathleen burns kingsbury

Wealth psychology expert and coach Kathleen Burns Kingsbury, founder of KBK Wealth Connection and host of the Breaking Money Silence® podcast, is an internationally published author and speaker.

In this episode, Kathleen talks about working with virtual assistants, changing your mindset toward money, how to negotiate for higher pay, and tips on public speaking.

leader assistant podcast kathleen burns jeremy burrows


Speak your mind, even If your voice shakes.

– Ruth Bader Ginsburg


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Wealth psychology expert and coach Kathleen Burns Kingsbury, founder of KBK Wealth Connection and host of the Breaking Money Silence® podcast, is an internationally published author and speaker. Breaking Money Silence®: How to Shatter Money Taboos, Talk More Openly about Finances, and Live a Richer Life is Kathleen’s fifth book.

Named one of nine amazing conference speakers by InvestmentNews, Kathleen is a sought-after keynote speaker, consultant, and coach on the topic of women and wealth and couples and money. Her mission is to empower women, couples, and families (and the advisors who serve them) to shatter money taboos and communicate more effectively about financial matters.

As an expert on financial psychology, Kathleen has appeared on television and written for consumer and trade publications. Her work has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, PBS NewsHour, Money Magazine, TODAY Money, Forbes, and CNBC. Kathleen served as an adjunct faculty member at the McCallum Graduate School at Bentley University from 2009 to 2019 where she taught the Psychology of Financial Planning in the CFP program. She currently teaches in the Business and Management School at Champlain College.

When she is not working, Kathleen is an avid alpine skier who lives for the next powder day. In the off-season, she enjoys mountain biking, kayaking, and laughing with her friends. She lives with her husband and in the beautiful Mad River Valley of Vermont.

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Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 0:00
I’m Kathleen Burns Kingsbury. Today’s leadership quote comes from Ruth Bader Ginsburg and it’s speak your mind even if your voice shakes.

Podcast Intro 0:14
The Leader Assistant Podcast exists to encourage and challenge assistants to become confident game changing leader assistants.

Jeremy Burrows 0:29
With so much on your plate, wouldn’t it be nice if ordering food for the office were easy and reliable. My friends at easy cater our workplace catering pros helping you find food for everything from daily employee meals to staff meetings and special events. With easy caterers network of over 100,000 restaurants nationwide, you’ll have a huge variety of options near you for any group size, dietary need or budget. Your food arrives on time as ordered all supported 24/7 by easy caters team of experts. Visit easycater.com/leaderassistant to find out more. Hey friends, welcome to The Leader Assistant Podcast. It’s your host Jeremy Burrows and you’re listening to Episode 215. You can check out the show notes at leaderassistant.com/215 leaderassistant.com/215. And today, we have a fun conversation all about money and psychology and negotiating and all of all the fun things that I know we assistants are passionate about figuring out how to negotiate for more money, figuring out how to make more money, figuring out how to negotiate on behalf of our executives on behalf of our companies with vendors and, and whatnot. So it’s gonna be exciting conversation. Thanks for tuning in. And my special guest today is Kathleen Burns. Kingsbury. Kathleen is a wealth psychology expert and coach. And she is also excited to talk about money. And so Kathleen, welcome.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 2:15
Thank you. I’m excited to break money silence with you and I love talking about negotiation.

Jeremy Burrows 2:20
Awesome, awesome. And I know your work has been featured in The New York Times The Wall Street Journal, PBS News Hour and among many other places. But you do know that the audience for this show are executive assistants, which I’m going to talk a little bit about this with you but you do know they run the world. So this is kind of a big deal.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 2:45
Well, how do you think I got an all those publications? Exactly. There you go. That’s my virtual team. Yeah, absolutely.

Jeremy Burrows 2:53
Awesome. Well, tell us a little bit about you personally. What’s your hobbies? Where are you at? Where are you located? And maybe, do you have kids pets? All the things?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 3:04
Absolutely. I live in Waitsfield, Vermont, which is Central Vermont. We relocated from Boston about eight years ago. And I love to ski and mountain bike and kayak and everything outdoors. And well I don’t have any kids. I am married. And we have a new kitty. Her name is Ashley Asper. Kingsbury. And she just joined us from the Rescue League Two months ago. So I’m a proud kitty mom.

Jeremy Burrows 3:34
Very nice. And mountain biking. That sounds fun. What uh, what’s your favorite mountain range to bike?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 3:41
Well in Vermont, I don’t know if we do mountain ranges because we’re a little smaller than out west. But there’s a place called Blueberry blueberry lake that’s right down the street from us. So we probably go three, four times a week. And even though sometimes it snows here we even go in the winter. So it’s fun.

Jeremy Burrows 4:00
Wow. So do you like chains for your mountain bike tires in the snow or?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 4:05
I don’t they actually grew some of them. But we have fat bikes for the winter and then carbon I spoiled myself with carbon fiber for the summer. So nice little spoiled.

Jeremy Burrows 4:18
Love it. Well, thanks again for joining us. Tell us a little bit about your career and how you ended up becoming a wealth psychology expert.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 4:29
I know they don’t say in high school. Do you want to become a well psychology expert. Basically, I own my own company. It’s called kBK wealth connection and in about 2007 I created this firm to incorporate everything that I love. So I have a background in both psychology as well as a background in finance. So my firm really blends the two so I do coaching consulting training on topics of women wealth, couples and money negotiation In the psychology of negotiation, and really my whole purpose is to empower people to have better conversations around money and be healthier, and have greater financial well being. So I kind of made it up in 2007. And it worked. And so here I am. Many speeches, workshops, presentations and books later. And I love what I do. And now that I’ve paid my dues, I get to ski and mountain bike a little bit more during the week than I used to.

Jeremy Burrows 5:28
Nice. Yeah, awesome. So what let’s talk before we get too into the money topic, let’s talk about assistants. And tell tell us a little bit about your experience as you started your firm and realized, oh, I need to hire help, and how, how many assistants, you know, at one time have you had during during that journey? And tell us a little bit about Yeah, working with assistance.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 5:55
Sure, I truly believe that. I call them my team. And so you know, the way my team works is it is a team of virtual assistants. And so when I started my business, I like a lot of people who are entrepreneurs, when they start out felt like I couldn’t afford to get any help. But once I figured out, hey, virtual assistant, I could hire for a period of time, I didn’t have to commit, like it could be project basis, I didn’t have to commit to something that felt daunting. I got my first virtual assistant. And then the rest is history, once I learned how wonderful it was to have somebody in my corner that could do a project or take the pressure off, or had an area of expertise that I didn’t have, say social marketing, online marketing, transcription, you name it, bookkeeping, whatever it might be, I realized that this was a great way to build my business. So prior to the pandemic, I was kind of at the height of my speaking and traveling book touring, I had a team of five virtual assistants that all work together. And I smile, because I just really loved each and every one of them. I have kept two since the pandemic because I’ve gotten more virtual and gotten off the road. And I’m doing less that requires that kind of support. But what one of my virtual assistants, the one that actually helped me, meet you, has been working with me for over seven years. And I tell her all the time that if she her name is Kyle, if she retires, she needs to give me about five years notice because that’s how much I rely on her. So I think very highly of virtual assistants, and have used them throughout my career and will continue to do so maybe even into retirement, I’ll have a virtual assistant just because I really like having someone in my corner.

Jeremy Burrows 7:49
Yeah, that’s great. How did you find your assistants,

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 7:55
I found my assistants through networking. So I’m trying to think of where I found my first one, my guess is my first virtual assistant, probably came from networking with other speakers, who also had virtual assistants. And then I landed, working with one virtual assistant who was awesome. And she was so well connected, that when I needed a new team member, I would ask her and she would, you know, introduce me to people and nine out of 10 times it was a good match. And the same is true for my current assistant, the only reason the first assistant left where she started, she left to start her own VA school and training. So she went off to do bigger things, and I wished her well. And then I was able to find this other assistant. And it’s all been through networking, and interviewing. And I think one of the things that I’ve realized through interviewing lots of virtual assistants and having this team is the fit is so important. And in the beginning, I don’t think I really got how important the interview process was not only for me, the person hiring them, but also for them to be able to say, Is this someone that I can work with? Are we going to be a good team? And, you know, I think working through conflict, and being able to come out on the other side has made my team even stronger. So

Jeremy Burrows 9:17
that’s great. So what would be your number one tip for working remotely with an assistant

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 9:25
communication? It requires, it requires Sorry to cut you off, it requires a lot of it requires a lot of communication. And what has been interesting both, you know as the leader of the firm, as well, as I’m sure if you be an interesting podcast interview, the people who work for me is that there isn’t one right way of communication. So what I discovered over time was you know, I think what a lot of people who own businesses discover is you know, people can’t read your mind. People don’t know what you’re Thinking. And also people have different communication styles. So what I started to do early on was every year I would do somewhat of an annual review. But basically, that was a time for us to talk about communication and what was working and what wasn’t. And I really think that people who could do that process with me, and also had a good sense of humor, were able to work through and work long term with me, and vice versa. So that’s the that’s the number one thing that I think’s important is that communication fit and working at it?

Jeremy Burrows 10:33
Yeah, what tools do you use for communication? Is it mostly email? Do you use any sort of project management or task management tool?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 10:41
I’ve used a variety of ones but the past, I’m going to say, six or seven years, I’ve used teamworks. And that has worked out well, with my team. I’ve tried Asana, I’ve tried Salesforce, I’ve, you know, tried a bunch of other things. We also have other platforms, you know, for marketing, and things like that. But team works, and then some email, and everybody who works with me, I warn them now, that often when I send an email, I think it’s one email, but it’s usually two or three emails, and they come in, you know, just when I finish a thought, I go, Oh, I have another thought, No, I have another thought. So I kind of warn people that that’s what’s going to happen. And then we often have meetings when needed. So you know, via zoom, or whatever, I think that touching base every once in a while, not a lot, doesn’t have to be weekly, is important for me, and how my business runs.

Jeremy Burrows 11:37
Great. That’s awesome. Thanks for sharing. And, you know, assistants. Virtual in, and non virtual assistants are often unfortunately, some of the most underpaid in in the world. They work with high level C suite teams at multibillion dollar public companies and investment firms that have billions of dollars under under management. And they get, unfortunately, they get run to the ground and not really rewarded for it at times. And so one thing that I’ve been passionate about trying to help the assistance of the world with my resources, and my book, and my podcasts, and all the fun, fun stuff I’ve tried to put out, is helping them make more money, and helping them make what they deserve. And helping them see that it’s not a greedy thing to negotiate. It’s not a it’s not a matter of, oh, I’m going to take the money from someone else if I get it and all that those kind of thoughts that come into our heads. But it’s about No, you deserve this. And you You’ve earned it in but how do you present that case? So let’s talk about money. What? What’s your tips for those listening who know they’re underpaid? And or think they’re probably underpaid? And just don’t know where to start?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 13:14
Well, first of all, realizing that you’re underpaid is a great place to start. And one of the things with virtual assistants being on the other side of the table, I’ve realized the range of fees is all over the place. So there’s you know, I think that’s hard that there’s not a particular standard out there. I think the first thing is to really think about what is your mindset around asking for what you’re worth? And I call that your negotiation mindset? What are the automatic thoughts and beliefs you have about the value you provide about whether you should negotiate? You mentioned greedy a lot of people have whether they’re conscious of it or not, they have this mindset that if I ask more, I’m not going to get the job, or I’m going to be seen as greedy. So I really work with people to identify what is their negotiation mindset? What are the strengths of their mindset? And what are the things that are getting in the way? So I think once you start to realize what is the mindset I currently have, you can start to work at the pieces of your mindset that might be problematic. And so that is usually where I have people start. And I think in terms of you know, strategy around negotiation, you could have all the strategy in the world. But if you don’t show up with the right mindset, and understand where your thoughts and beliefs are about money, it’s going to be hard to negotiate a good deal for yourself.

Jeremy Burrows 14:31
That’s, that’s great. So how do you? Is there a good resource for those who were like, No, I don’t deserve it. I don’t want to be greedy. And is there a good mantra or resource to help kind of get that out of there to help them change their mindset?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 14:48
Yes. So I’m more than happy to share this with your audience. There’s an exercise called your negotiation mindset that I can provide to you that people can start to take a look at their mindset. There’s no one mantra, I think it’s really coming up with your own is what’s key because it’s in your brain and in your heads, you have to reprogram that and replace it with something that you believe in. So that is a process. There’s also a great book. You people may not realize it if you look at like my website or whatever, but I used to be an under earner as well. And while I didn’t work as a virtual assistant, I did feel really mixed feelings about earning money. And so the book that I turned to was what by Barbara Stanny and it was called overcoming under earning still in print. I don’t know if you know if barber Stanny she’s now barber Stanny Heusen, she, she has a huge following for a lot of people around money. And that book really saved my life. So if somebody was to buy one book, I would love to say it’s mine. But it’s not it’s Barbara’s. It’s overcoming under earning.

Jeremy Burrows 15:58
That’s great. And then we can put the link to that in the show notes. And you said there’s a negotiating mindset, resource or worksheet, is that right? Yes,

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 16:06
I can get that to you. I can get a link to you. No problem.

Jeremy Burrows 16:09
Yeah, we’ll put all that in the show notes. leaderassistant.com slash 215. So okay, so you’re working on your mindset and changing your mindset toward toward money. And now let’s, let’s get a little bit into the practical side of things. What, what’s your advice to those? Okay, all right, I know, I need I know deserve more. I know that I am worth it. But now what? Well, you have

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 16:40
to determine your value in the marketplace. Right? And so your value in the marketplace is is twofold in my mind. One is you have to figure out what are other people with your skill set being paid, what ranges are out there, and where if you’re the business owner, where do you want to be in that, that range of prices or fees. And we’ll talk a little bit more about that in a minute. The other piece is figuring out what is important to you, what do you value, because based on what you value, you are going to negotiate the things you value. It may be other things in addition to the actual fee. But knowing your value is really important. So you need to do research, you need to talk to other VAs, my senses, your community might be able to be useful in this regard. Because if you’re if you’re working remotely, and you’re in a vacuum, and you’re providing the services, and you don’t have any idea what other people are charging, you just don’t have the data that you need. And it can be really eye opening, if you’re on the low end of the scale to all of a sudden realize, wait a second, I’m charging, you know, $30 an hour. And I realize people are making 120, it can be very eye opening. So you have to do that kind of research. And I think the other thing that comes up with people, and I’d love your thoughts about this, Jeremy is when they are new to a particular profession. And in this case, it would be a virtual assistant, when they’re new. They often feel like well, I can’t charge a lot because I’m new, but they don’t look at all the valuable skills and transferable skills that they’re bringing. In fact, one of my virtual assistants actually used to work in a law firm and is very highly qualified as an executive assistant. So believe it or not, I’ve worked with my own assistant to raise her own fees.

Jeremy Burrows 18:26
Awesome. So what about what have you seen, though, in your experience, over the years in the corporate setting, where, you know, they’ve got all the HR levels and titles and you know, it’s well that you’re not in the range? You know, that’s that’s or that’s not the range or at the top of the range? How have you helped people negotiate in those environments? Because I know it’s even this week, I heard from one it’s like, I’m in education and academia is not very flexible. And so I’m like, Well, you might want to consider a new industry. But But no, what’s the Yeah, what are your thoughts? Yeah,

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 19:10
that’s hard. And I’m saying no, with academia because I am an adjunct professor. And if you want to be underpaid, be an adjunct professor, I love it. But that’s my area where I accept being underpaid. I would say that when you’re in a corporate setting, or when you’re in a industry where you know, the pay range is lower, or there’s this range, that it part of negotiating is going to be not only knowing what that range is, but then being able to clearly communicate your value in business terms. So for instance, if you are somebody that can increase productivity, if you can save them money, if you can, make a process more efficient, whatever it is, you need to think about a way in which you can communicate that and make a business case they are not going to pay you more just Because you should earn more or you need to earn more, they’re going to pay you more because you’re going to make their business more efficient. So it’s really being able to state that it in a way that they can hear. And often the mistake I hear people make is they make it too personal, you need to make it about the other person. When you’re negotiating. Yes, you need to think about what you want. But you also need to think about the person and what they want the other person, and then put it in their terms. Now, when it comes to say it’s a, like an academic setting, or maybe it’s an industry where they’re like, sorry, we’re not going to do anymore, then you start negotiating other things, actually, the best negotiators negotiate bundles of things, not just one. So an example, Jeremy would be my niece just negotiated with a law firm in a big city. And the pay could only go to a certain level. So she said, Well, what about my billable hours? What about working, you know, this doesn’t apply for a lot of assistance, but working in a hybrid situation? What about, you know, making sure that I have tuition reimbursement, all these other things, and then she got a sign on bonus. So sometimes you can negotiate a lot of other things besides the actual fee, or the actual salary. And good negotiators think about the whole package.

Jeremy Burrows 21:19
Yeah, we were talking about this in our call the other day with our community. And there was somebody that said, you know, they don’t do sign on bonuses in academia. And, and I was like, well, there’s, there’s different ways to be creative. And like you said, there’s different levers you can pull. And whether it’s, you know, a stipend for your phone, or educate professional development budget for going to conferences and training or, you know, whatever, whatever it is, there’s other ways to get what you want. And like you said, you got to figure out what you want, before you go in. And I love, love, love what you said about making it about them. Because it’s like, you go up, and you’re like, oh, you know, I need to, I need to make more money. And I need this. And I need that versus going up to them and saying, you know, you’ve saved X amount of dollars, and you saved X amount, the company has just saved X amount of dollars and X amount of time having me here, and here’s the extra things that I’ve done to make it so you don’t have to hire another person and all those things. And that’s

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 22:23
it. And I really want to be part of the team and I want to continue to grow. And you know, all of those things needs to be authentic. But yes, and I think is a big mistake. And I know I’ve made that mistake, when I’m negotiating, it’s taking some time before you walk into the negotiation, and really thinking about that other person, and the pressure they may be under. I’ve talked with a lot of people who are on the other side of the table, and they are often just as anxious as the people negotiating. And sometimes there’s, you know, if they’re middle management, they’re getting squashed. So often, I will encourage people to say things like, you know, is there anything I can do to help you justify this? Or bring this to, you know, your supervisor? Because if everybody’s successful in this, that’s great. And sometimes you’ll get a no, and if you get a no, it doesn’t mean a no, forever. Don’t have the mindset that it’s never gonna happen. It kind of goes to the quote, like, it’s okay, you have to speak up, you have to ask, you never know to ask. And industries change. And I know academia can be kind of set in stone, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not going to change. There’s all sorts of things that are changing all the time.

Jeremy Burrows 23:34
How many times have you seen somebody go in and present a business case? And they get a no? And then, like, how many times like how persistent should one be? If they get to know like, do they come back six months later and do it again? Do they? You know, I don’t know what what are your thoughts on how persistent

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 23:56
I think you should expect to know not that I’m being pessimistic, but expect to know and then have some verbiage or some language about it, say, Okay, I understand right now, this is, you know, this is a no, I would like to revisit this in six months, would that be okay? Or I’d like to revisit that and three months, whatever they agree to get it in writing. And when I say get it in writing, it can simply be you finish the meeting, you write an email going, I this is what I asked for. This is what we you know, it’s not going to happen now. And this is what we agreed to, that’s an email that’s in writing. That way you can follow up now say it’s three months from now. You have three months to start to write down every impact you have in the firm. Any successes you have, you have time to gather more data. The other thing is when you get to know you can also ask the other person you know, I You can be honest, I’m a little disappointed but I want to know what would make this a yes, what would have to be different about My performance or my impact, and gather that data. So it isn’t the end of the conversation. What I actually just ran a workshop last week down in Florida, and one of the women that I had been working with one on one as a coach, year ago said to me, I asked a year ago, and then my performance reviews coming up this year. And she goes, because I walked in with a strong ass last year, I feel like this year, I have even a stronger ask, and I have more data. So it may take a year, but keep at it. And I think, you know, if you don’t eventually get the answer you want, then it may be time to look at is this the right place? Are there other things you can negotiate? And then you get to decide sometimes people need to move on? And that’s okay, too.

Jeremy Burrows 25:50
What about, you know, assistants this, there’s a stat I feel like it’s changing a little bit, but not a lot. There’s a stat about assistants. I think it’s like 96% of assistants are women. And you know, there’s obviously everybody knows the stats about you know, women making less than men, I don’t remember what these are

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 26:14
79 cents for white woman 56 cents for a black woman. Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Burrows 26:19
So considering that 96% of my listeners are in that category, what are your thoughts or tips for it maybe even nuances for a woman negotiating. And in the environment that the unfortunate scenario that they’re most likely underpaid compared to their male counterparts?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 26:45
Well, you have had another passion of mine, most of my negotiation courses, and coaching is for women, because I do believe that it’s unfair. There are systematic issues, but we can’t address those in the minute. So let’s address how we show up. And I think that one of the things that research shows is that when women show up for negotiation, it’s important for them to have an ask and to set the stage for what that ask is. So what they have shown is if you show up to a negotiation, and they say, you know, what would you like your salary to be? Or what would you like your raise to be? And the woman just says, Well, I just wanted to hear from you, then that that person ends up getting less money than the person says, Well, I’ve done some research. And I think I should be, you know, paid X number amount. And if you’re afraid to put out $1 amount, you can put out a range. And make sure anybody listening, make sure that that range is something higher than you’re originally thinking, because if you’re struggling with this, and you’re anxious about it, chances are you’re going to undercut yourself. And basically, what you’re doing my background in behavioral finance is you’re setting an anchor, you are setting a number that, whether someone’s realizing it or not, they’re going to benchmark what they’re going to offer you. So you’re setting that number. So you’re setting the conversation and moving the bar up. Now, you can’t be ridiculous with that number. So that’s where the research comes in around your value and what the market will bear. But that’s a really important thing for women. I think the other thing I’ll say, is that, like it or not, women need to talk in terms of we, the team, and be very nice and relationship oriented, like we’re in it together. We get criticized or unconsciously experienced bias, when we’re more about me, I wish for a man typically doesn’t have the same effect negative effect in negotiation. It’s not right. It just is a fact. So we have to work with it. Yeah.

Jeremy Burrows 28:54
That’s great. Thanks for the extra insight there. And then, you know, I think this is great. And we’re gonna share those resources on the show notes. But there’s one other thing I wanted to hear from you. You’ve done a lot of speaking and yeah, thought leadership, if you will, what, what are your tips for assistants listening, who? You know, I’m passionate about communication, like you said communication earlier. I think public speaking is one of the best ways to learn how even if you’re never going to go speak in front of a crowd, I think it’s a really good skill to learn. So do you have any tips throughout your career that have helped you become a better public speaker?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 29:39
Yes, there’s so many that we don’t have time for them. But I would say the thing that popped into my head is you need to face the fear. If you’re afraid of public speaking the best thing you can do is publicly speak. I am a paid professional speaker and I in college switched my major not making this up to avoid the public speaking class. Yes, that’s how much so I really think that try something like Toastmasters. Are you familiar with Toastmasters? So try something like Toastmasters, where you have a structure, you have a friendly support in order to speak, you got to get up there and give it a try. And you need to learn from your mistakes, if I look back to when I started, and you’re never as good as you are, you know, 15 years later, but when I look back, I would beat myself up for making a mistake when I would present or didn’t come across the way I wanted to come across. And if there’s a way to have compassion, hire a good coach, or have a good colleague, or friend who can help you get some perspective. That is what helped me learn and grow and be the speaker that I am. And the last thing I’ll say is after you face the fear, and you’re compassionate with yourself, the best speakers are authentic and true to who they are. Don’t try to be somebody else, just be who you are. And that’s when you really hit home run.

Jeremy Burrows 31:01
Well said, and I’m jotting down notes because I’m speaking next week, and so this is exciting. All right. Well, Kathleen, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing a little bit of your story and your insight. What’s up I’ll share all the links in the show notes, but what’s kind of the number one place that you’d like people to find you and learn more?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 31:24
I would love them to go to breaking money silence.com And they can sign up for free money talk tips that they get every week in their mailbox, and they can also check out my masterclass on negotiating if they want to become a better negotiator.

Jeremy Burrows 31:38
Love it. Excited to share those in the show notes again leaderassistant.com/215 Kathleen, thanks again. Best of luck to you and enjoy some mountain biking for me.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury 31:51
I will it’s been great breaking money silence with you

Unknown Speaker 32:04
please leave a review on Apple podcast.

Unknown Speaker 32:14

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