This episode features a Nova Chat session hosted by Nova founder and CEO Maggie Olson.
Maggie Olson chats with Sydney Elaine Butler, Eliana Bravos, and Jessica McBride about their personal experiences with neurodivergence in the c-suite, touching on topics like neuro-inclusion, intersectionality, masking at work, and resources to help navigate the challenges in the workplace that come along with being neurodiverse.
We hope this chat will shine a light on some of the benefits and challenges of neurodivergence in a workplace setting and provide pathways to supportive resources and community for those who need them.
ABOUT SYDNEY
HR Professional | Founder, Speaker, and HR/DEIA Consultant at Accessible Creates | Neurodiversity Coach | DEIB Facilitator | They/Them Pronouns
It is Sydney Elaine Butler’s understanding that their professional purpose must be to ensure that everyone could be successful regardless of barriers and that they must as a professional remove these barriers. Sydney conducts training and consulting for other companies on how to be more Accessible and Inclusive from a Human approach and how to recruit and retain more diverse individuals through the lens of Intersectionality/Human Resources as well as other areas of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in an authentic manner at the company they founded called Accessible Creates due to understanding the barriers that exist within the workplace for diverse individuals.
ABOUT JESSICA
Jessica McBride is the brains behind Tech Savvy Assistant, a go-to hub for modernizing admin work through tech. With over 10 years in the admin field, she knows the ins and outs of the job and how tech can make it better. Jessica is all about teaching. She’s on a mission to help admin pros get tech-savvy to make their lives easier and up their game. She does this through various channels, but speaking events are her forte. Notably, she was a speaker at the 2023 Administrative Professional Conference in Las Vegas. Her knack for breaking down complex tech topics and her engaging style make her a popular speaker.
ABOUT ELIANA
Eliana Bravos is a social impact entrepreneur passionate about neuro-inclusion, accessibility, and creating community spaces where people can form deep social ties and feel like they belong. As one of the co-founders of ND Connect, Eliana is building an intersectional mentorship and peer connections platform for neurodivergent adults to connect with others that share lived experiences and grow with the community. She also co-founded a non-profit, Viability, where she’s led organizational development, community programming, and neurodiversity education initiatives. To date, she’s supported 1000+ leaders in making their cultures and processes more accessible, including at organizations like Interac, IBM, McMaster University, and the University of Toronto. She also brings seven years of experience facilitating non-hierarchical peer programming with neurodivergent young adults. Eliana brings her lived experiences with neurodiversity (ADHD + mental health) when advocating for systems change, and ultimately, hopes to create more spaces where neurodivergent people can live as their authentic selves and thrive. In her personal life, Eliana loves traveling, hiking, art, cooking, and spontaneous adventures that get her dopamine flowing.
ABOUT MAGGIE
Maggie Olson is the Founder of Nova Chief of Staff, the premier destination for Chief of Staff education and development. As the first Chief of Staff to a president at a Fortune 40 company — who led a multibillion-dollar business with 5,000+ employees — Maggie built the president’s Chief of Staff model from the ground up. Maggie has 20 years’ experience leading large teams and has spent her career focused on both customer and employee experience at companies including T-Mobile, Nordstrom, and Starbucks. In addition to operating the Nova Chief of Staff Certification course, Maggie is a fractional Chief of Staff focused on helping mission-driven, for-profit startup founders scale their businesses quickly. In her spare time, Maggie loves spending time outside with her husband, their animals, and their 1-year-old, Max!
–––
THE LEADER ASSISTANT PODCAST IS PRESENTED BY NOVA CHIEF OF STAFF
Calling all Executive Assistants: Are you looking for a way to elevate your skills or earn that promotion you’ve been eyeing? Nova Chief of Staff’s online certification course provides you with the knowledge and confidence you need to stand out on the job. Whether you want to land your dream position or level up in your current role, Nova’s self-paced course gives you hands-on practice doing what Chiefs of Staff do every day.
Visit leaderassistant.com/nova to learn more and secure your spot!
–––
THE LEADER ASSISTANT PREMIUM MEMBERSHIP
To learn more about how you can join growth-minded Leader Assistants, check out our Leader Assistant Premium Membership for ongoing training, coaching, and community.
THE LEADER ASSISTANT BOOK
Download the first 3 chapters of The Leader Assistant: Four Pillars of Game-Changing Assistant for FREE here or buy it on Amazon and listen to the audiobook on Audible. Also, check out the companion study guide, The Leader Assistant Workbook, to dig deeper.
LEADER ASSISTANT LIVE EVENTS
Check out our constantly updated schedule of events for admins and assistants at LeaderAssistantLive.com.
JOIN THE FREE COMMUNITY
Join the Leader Assistant Global Community for bonus content, job opportunities, and to network with other assistants who are committed to becoming leaders!
SUBSCRIBE
Subscribe to The Leader Assistant Podcast so you don’t miss new episodes!
You can find the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Pandora, and Stitcher.
Join my email list here if you want to get an email when a new episode goes live.
LEAVE A REVIEW
If you’re enjoying the podcast, please take 2 minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts here. Each review helps me stay motivated to keep the show going!
THE LEADER ASSISTANT BOOK
Download the first 3 chapters of The Leader Assistant: Four Pillars of Game-Changing Assistant for FREE here or buy it on Amazon and listen to the audiobook on Audible. Also, check out the companion study guide, The Leader Assistant Workbook, to dig deeper.
LEADER ASSISTANT LIVE EVENTS
Check out our constantly updated schedule of events for admins and assistants at LeaderAssistantLive.com.
JOIN THE FREE COMMUNITY
Join the Leader Assistant Global Community for bonus content, job opportunities, and to network with other assistants who are committed to becoming leaders!
SUBSCRIBE
Subscribe to The Leader Assistant Podcast so you don’t miss new episodes!
You can find the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Pandora, and Stitcher.
Join my email list here if you want to get an email when a new episode goes live.
LEAVE A REVIEW
If you’re enjoying the podcast, please take 2 minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts here. Each review helps me stay motivated to keep the show going!
–––
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00.020 –> 00:00:02.680
JEREMY: Hey friends, welcome to episode 306.
00:00:02.680 –> 00:00:13.980
JEREMY: It’s another Nova Chat with my friend Maggie Olson discussing a very fascinating topic, which is neurodivergence in the C-suite.
00:00:13.980 –> 00:00:33.940
JEREMY: And as I’ve said in the past, the goal of my podcast is to highlight people with different stories and different experiences, all related to our role as executive assistants, administrative professionals and all the other dozens and dozens of titles in the executive support world.
00:00:33.940 –> 00:00:48.400
JEREMY: So as you are navigating your role as a leader assistant in the workplace, there are a lot of different topics that are relevant in different scenarios and different settings with different executives and different colleagues and so on and so forth.
00:00:48.400 –> 00:01:05.060
JEREMY: And so I’m really excited today for Maggie’s Nova Chat that she had a discussion with Sydney Elaine Butler, Eliana Bravos, and Jessica McBride about their personal experiences with neurodivergence in the C-suite.
00:01:05.060 –> 00:01:07.840
JEREMY: So I really hope you enjoy this conversation.
00:01:07.840 –> 00:01:17.000
JEREMY: You can check out the show notes at leaderassistant.com/306 and again enjoy this Nova Chat on neurodivergence in the C-suite.
00:01:23.489 –> 00:01:31.069
<v SPEAKER_2>The Leader Assistant Podcast exists to encourage and challenge assistants to become confident, game-changing leader assistants.
00:01:40.458 –> 00:01:50.098
JEREMY: Hey friends, the Nova Chief of Staff Certification Course is one of the most popular professional development resources for growth-minded leader assistants like you.
00:01:50.098 –> 00:02:07.598
JEREMY: With dozens of templates, self-paced learning, multiple instructor touchpoints, and peer engagement, Nova alumni walk away empowered and confident to level up as an assistant or even negotiate a promotion to a Chief of Staff role.
00:02:07.958 –> 00:02:15.938
JEREMY: With well over 500 students across 22 countries, Nova is the top spot for Chief of Staff learning and development.
00:02:15.938 –> 00:02:18.678
JEREMY: Join the movement today at leaderassistant.com/nova.
00:02:20.638 –> 00:02:21.898
JEREMY: That’s leaderassistant.com/nova.
00:02:26.338 –> 00:02:29.078
MAGGIE: It’s really, really exciting to be here.
00:02:29.078 –> 00:02:30.538
MAGGIE: Again, my name is Maggie Olson.
00:02:30.538 –> 00:02:35.918
MAGGIE: I’m the founder of Nova Chief of Staff, the premier destination for Chief of Staff education and development.
00:02:36.598 –> 00:02:41.138
MAGGIE: Check out our website for more information about our acclaimed Chief of Staff certification course.
00:02:41.138 –> 00:02:42.798
MAGGIE: We’ve got a lot of other stuff on there.
00:02:42.798 –> 00:02:49.838
MAGGIE: We built a course with our very own Jessica McBride, who’s on the call here as a panelist, AI for Chiefs of Staff.
00:02:49.838 –> 00:02:51.218
MAGGIE: Got a lot of fun stuff’s going on.
00:02:51.218 –> 00:02:56.938
MAGGIE: But essentially today, we are here to talk about neurodivergence in the C-suite.
00:02:56.938 –> 00:03:12.738
MAGGIE: Whether you’re neurodivergent or not, or you think you might be, or you just really don’t know if these are new terms to you, maybe you consider yourself neurotypical and you just want to be a better ally to those around you, you are welcome to this chat.
00:03:12.738 –> 00:03:22.978
MAGGIE: I have found, I think that we will get deep into this today, but there’s all this language now that talks about people in ways that help us understand each other.
00:03:22.978 –> 00:03:35.218
MAGGIE: And I think that neurodivergence and neurodifferences and, you know, neurodiversity and neurotypical, all of these things and words help us understand each other better and helps us understand ourselves better.
00:03:35.218 –> 00:03:39.178
MAGGIE: And my goal is on this call, we can learn from each other.
00:03:39.178 –> 00:03:48.778
MAGGIE: We can learn about ourselves and we can really just learn how to be better allies and better community members in our work and in our lives.
00:03:48.778 –> 00:04:00.458
MAGGIE: So one of my favorite things about owning my own business now is that we can talk about what we want to talk about, shine a light on what’s important and talk to some really special people based on kind of the things that we want to discuss.
00:04:01.758 –> 00:04:11.738
MAGGIE: So I’m going to start here with introductions and then we’re going to go into, we’re going to kind of route after introductions on some definitions.
00:04:11.738 –> 00:04:15.958
MAGGIE: And then we’re going to go from there and dive into some questions that I have for our panelists.
00:04:16.998 –> 00:04:24.018
MAGGIE: So I would love to hear from each of our panelists and I’ll kind of pass the mic off to each of you.
00:04:24.018 –> 00:04:26.058
MAGGIE: Please tell us who you are.
00:04:26.058 –> 00:04:32.558
MAGGIE: Tell us about the company that you run and what you do for people in your community.
00:04:32.558 –> 00:04:42.778
MAGGIE: Do you consider yourself neurodivergent, neurodiverse, and anything else that you’d like to share to help this group understand who you are and why you’re here today?
00:04:42.778 –> 00:04:45.898
MAGGIE: So I will start with Jessica McBride.
00:04:45.898 –> 00:04:47.338
JESSICA: Hello, I’m Jessica McBride.
00:04:47.338 –> 00:04:49.298
JESSICA: I’m the founder of TechSavvy Assistant.
00:04:49.298 –> 00:04:52.018
JESSICA: I was an executive assistant up until 2023.
00:04:52.018 –> 00:05:01.138
JESSICA: I was laid off and I since started my own business where I teach admins technology, a lot of different things about advocacy and empowerment.
00:05:01.438 –> 00:05:09.058
JESSICA: I identify as autistic and ADHD or ADHD as some people say and I was diagnosed around 32.
00:05:09.058 –> 00:05:15.758
JESSICA: So I was very late diagnosed and before that they considered me just depressed and anxious.
00:05:15.758 –> 00:05:25.198
JESSICA: I really like acknowledging the neurodivergence and talking about it because I’m finding that the more I speak about it, the more my peers can relate to it and understand why they may have been struggling also.
00:05:25.818 –> 00:05:30.118
JESSICA: So that’s part of the piece that I talk about with the work that I do in my business.
00:05:30.118 –> 00:05:30.578
MAGGIE: Yeah.
00:05:30.578 –> 00:05:32.238
MAGGIE: Thank you for sharing, Jessica.
00:05:32.238 –> 00:05:33.318
MAGGIE: We’ll get to Shay last.
00:05:33.318 –> 00:05:36.898
MAGGIE: Shay is the sponsor of this event with Mentra, his company.
00:05:36.898 –> 00:05:40.138
MAGGIE: And so we’ll go to Eliana next.
00:05:41.478 –> 00:05:42.698
ELIANA: Hey, everyone.
00:05:42.698 –> 00:05:43.658
ELIANA: I’m Eliana.
00:05:43.658 –> 00:05:45.998
ELIANA: I usually hear pronouns.
00:05:45.998 –> 00:05:49.658
ELIANA: I have ADHD as well as some mental health disabilities.
00:05:49.658 –> 00:05:52.158
ELIANA: And I’m one of the co-founders of ND Connect.
00:05:52.518 –> 00:05:55.138
ELIANA: We’re a new startup.
00:05:55.138 –> 00:05:56.958
ELIANA: We’ve been around for about a year now.
00:05:56.958 –> 00:06:01.458
ELIANA: And we are the global peer mentorship and community platform for neurodiversion professionals.
00:06:02.538 –> 00:06:10.498
ELIANA: I’m really passionate about peer mentorship and community because finding a mentor personally who also just had ADHD completely by accident really changed my life for the better.
00:06:10.498 –> 00:06:20.038
ELIANA: And so I’m really looking to make connections like this and finding your people, a community of people who really understand you and want to support you and champion you, more accessible to everybody.
00:06:20.858 –> 00:06:25.218
ELIANA: And I’m really proud because we’re almost 1,000 people now in just the last year.
00:06:25.218 –> 00:06:29.518
ELIANA: So it’s really exciting just to see how many people are coming.
00:06:29.518 –> 00:06:35.518
ELIANA: But yeah, I am also really passionate about road trips and spending time outside.
00:06:35.518 –> 00:06:37.878
ELIANA: And I’m also really approachable, accessible person.
00:06:37.878 –> 00:06:48.298
ELIANA: So if you have questions and you’re considering, you know, am I neurodivergent or what are some tips to help with task initiation or, oh God, like I have ADHD and I don’t even know what that means or where to get started.
00:06:48.958 –> 00:06:50.498
ELIANA: Please, please, please feel free to reach out to me.
00:06:50.498 –> 00:06:53.358
ELIANA: And I’m happy just to talk as a founder, as a peer.
00:06:53.358 –> 00:06:57.058
ELIANA: And, you know, if there’s any ways that I can be helpful, I’d like to be so.
00:06:57.058 –> 00:06:57.938
ELIANA: Yeah.
00:06:57.938 –> 00:06:58.938
ELIANA: Nice to meet you.
00:06:58.938 –> 00:06:59.418
MAGGIE: Awesome.
00:06:59.418 –> 00:07:00.318
MAGGIE: Thanks, Eliana.
00:07:00.318 –> 00:07:04.778
MAGGIE: And our team will link each of these folks’ businesses in the chat.
00:07:04.778 –> 00:07:07.898
MAGGIE: So we’re not going to overwhelm the chat and do it all at once all the time.
00:07:07.898 –> 00:07:10.998
MAGGIE: But you will get that in the chat and in our post recap email, too.
00:07:10.998 –> 00:07:14.718
MAGGIE: So, OK, Sydney, over to you.
00:07:14.718 –> 00:07:15.838
SYDNEY: Hi, everyone.
00:07:15.838 –> 00:07:17.098
SYDNEY: I’m Sydney Elaine Butler.
00:07:17.438 –> 00:07:20.018
SYDNEY: I am the founder of Accessible Creates.
00:07:20.018 –> 00:07:22.018
SYDNEY: And I founded Accessible Creates.
00:07:22.018 –> 00:07:26.058
SYDNEY: It’s going to be actually three years, the end of August, which feels surreal.
00:07:26.058 –> 00:07:32.638
SYDNEY: But I founded Accessible Creates because I realized, I studied human resources and I worked in human resources for a little bit.
00:07:32.638 –> 00:07:42.098
SYDNEY: I really realized that human resources and businesses as a whole weren’t really inclusive and accessible to neurodivergent folks as well as people with disabilities.
00:07:42.638 –> 00:07:58.758
SYDNEY: And so now I’m kind of an HR consultant and the UNI consultant, as well in the space of accessibility and neurodiversity, really helping businesses understand the importance of making sure that they know how to better retain employees with disabilities and their neurodivergent.
00:07:58.758 –> 00:08:05.018
SYDNEY: I think there’s a lot of emphasis on recruitment, but we already exist in your workplace and what does that look like?
00:08:05.018 –> 00:08:10.398
SYDNEY: So then I provide training, consulting, coaching, and to make sure these workplaces are inclusive and accessible.
00:08:10.838 –> 00:08:18.418
SYDNEY: And I am autistic and also have CPTSD, and I’m also have all these different identities that I bring with me.
00:08:18.418 –> 00:08:20.658
SYDNEY: And I also am a dog mom.
00:08:20.658 –> 00:08:21.258
MAGGIE: Amazing.
00:08:21.258 –> 00:08:22.358
MAGGIE: Me too.
00:08:22.358 –> 00:08:22.618
MAGGIE: Awesome.
00:08:22.618 –> 00:08:24.278
MAGGIE: Well, thanks for being here, Sydney.
00:08:24.278 –> 00:08:32.398
MAGGIE: With that, I want to dive a little bit deeper into kind of why I want to have this chat and why neurodivergence and neurodiversity is on my mind.
00:08:32.398 –> 00:08:36.538
MAGGIE: And I identify as a neurotypical person.
00:08:37.558 –> 00:08:40.158
MAGGIE: I also am not an expert in this field.
00:08:40.258 –> 00:08:42.258
MAGGIE: And that’s why Jessica, Eliana and Sydney are here.
00:08:42.258 –> 00:08:43.458
MAGGIE: They know a lot more than I do.
00:08:43.458 –> 00:08:47.478
MAGGIE: And it’s really possible that I might make a stumble or mistake or I might say something wrong.
00:08:47.478 –> 00:08:53.598
MAGGIE: And I’ve welcome our panelists to correct me, to tell me how to say something differently, more thoughtfully, the right way.
00:08:53.598 –> 00:08:56.218
MAGGIE: I think the conversation is what’s the important part here.
00:08:56.218 –> 00:08:59.978
MAGGIE: So with that, a little bit of a personal story.
00:08:59.978 –> 00:09:08.498
MAGGIE: I grew up with my dad, love my dad, great guy, very, very noise sensitive, really quick to get overwhelmed with noise.
00:09:09.358 –> 00:09:13.898
MAGGIE: And with that, he didn’t really know what was going on.
00:09:13.898 –> 00:09:16.298
MAGGIE: Like he couldn’t say, I’m noise sensitive.
00:09:16.298 –> 00:09:17.658
MAGGIE: This is overwhelming me.
00:09:17.658 –> 00:09:20.678
MAGGIE: I take, you know, I’m like, I have a lot of struggle.
00:09:20.678 –> 00:09:23.678
MAGGIE: I can’t process normal things going on when there’s too much noise.
00:09:23.678 –> 00:09:25.838
MAGGIE: And so I lash out in different ways there.
00:09:25.838 –> 00:09:27.598
MAGGIE: He did not have the language for that.
00:09:27.598 –> 00:09:28.658
MAGGIE: So I didn’t understand it.
00:09:28.658 –> 00:09:29.798
MAGGIE: He didn’t understand it.
00:09:29.798 –> 00:09:31.718
MAGGIE: Well, I’m 38 years old now.
00:09:31.718 –> 00:09:33.318
MAGGIE: I’m a mom to an 18 month old.
00:09:33.318 –> 00:09:38.938
MAGGIE: And I’ve realized in the last couple of years that I’m also very noise sensitive and I’m light sensitive too.
00:09:38.938 –> 00:09:45.078
MAGGIE: At the gym, it’s inside, but there’s big windows and I wear sunglasses just because I can get migraines and the light.
00:09:45.078 –> 00:09:47.078
MAGGIE: It’s just too much.
00:09:47.078 –> 00:09:50.658
MAGGIE: I’ve done some research and I understand and I’m going to go through a few definitions.
00:09:50.658 –> 00:10:04.198
MAGGIE: And this is just my brief personal story here that when it comes to neurodivergence versus being neurotypical, neurotypical people process the world in a way that works for societal norms.
00:10:04.338 –> 00:10:07.918
MAGGIE: And I’ll read some more specific definitions here before we pass it over to the panelists.
00:10:07.918 –> 00:10:19.118
MAGGIE: But that’s how I consider myself because I don’t feel like I need any different accommodations in those ways or in different ways to process the environment or societal norms besides what I’ve just shared.
00:10:19.118 –> 00:10:20.758
MAGGIE: But I really don’t know.
00:10:20.758 –> 00:10:23.798
MAGGIE: The point is the conversation and the language is what’s important.
00:10:23.798 –> 00:10:52.338
MAGGIE: And Eliana, Sydney and Jessica have a lot to share and a lot of knowledge around neurodivergence and the companies they run and how it shows up in the C-suite as well, which running a chief of staff company, that’s also what we want to talk about is how do we support each other in these high pressure, high stakes chief environments with CEOs and business leaders who have their own difficulties sometimes and we can have run ins there with neurotypical and neurodivergent folks.
00:10:52.398 –> 00:11:10.958
MAGGIE: So a little bit of a back story in finding all of this out about myself and just having a little more language, it just makes me want to understand people better and makes me feel a little more sensitive to people who might have a lot more extreme sensitivities than I do in certain ways.
00:11:10.958 –> 00:11:13.838
MAGGIE: And it makes me feel more connected to my neurodivergent peers.
00:11:13.838 –> 00:11:17.138
MAGGIE: So that’s why we’re here today.
00:11:17.138 –> 00:11:24.938
MAGGIE: I’m almost done with my part here, but I’m going to share a couple definitions and then we’re going to pass it over to our panelists to dive in a little bit deeper.
00:11:24.938 –> 00:11:29.918
MAGGIE: So what constitutes a neuro-typical employee?
00:11:29.918 –> 00:11:32.578
MAGGIE: Characteristics of a neuro-typical employee.
00:11:32.578 –> 00:11:38.138
MAGGIE: Neuro-typical employees typically exhibit conventional social interactions and communication skills.
00:11:38.138 –> 00:11:44.158
MAGGIE: They can more easily understand expectations and can independently organize and manage their work to meet deadlines.
00:11:44.158 –> 00:11:50.518
MAGGIE: They’re generally not as sensitive to environmental stimuli, such as sounds or activities around them, and have a structured thinking pattern.
00:11:51.278 –> 00:11:54.138
MAGGIE: Or maybe just a more typical structured thinking pattern.
00:11:54.138 –> 00:11:58.378
MAGGIE: What constitutes a neurodivergent employee?
00:11:58.378 –> 00:12:08.478
MAGGIE: The characteristics of neurodivergent employees vary depending on the specific type of neurodiversity, sometimes leading to unconventional responses to expectations or social norms.
00:12:08.478 –> 00:12:16.818
MAGGIE: They may be extremely sensitive to sensory stimuli, including sights, sounds, or visuals, more of a diverse thinking pattern.
00:12:18.738 –> 00:12:24.078
MAGGIE: Neurodivergent communication may include preferences that are different than neurotypical communication.
00:12:24.078 –> 00:12:27.258
MAGGIE: For example, written instead of verbal communication.
00:12:27.258 –> 00:12:32.238
MAGGIE: There may be discomfort with eye contact or statements may be taken more literally.
00:12:32.238 –> 00:12:41.178
MAGGIE: Communication styles, as we all know, can vary widely, necessitating really clear and explicit instructions and a flexible approach to interpersonal interactions.
00:12:41.178 –> 00:12:44.118
MAGGIE: So I wanted to ground us today on some definitions.
00:12:44.338 –> 00:12:48.318
MAGGIE: And I want to hear from, we’re going to start with Eliana.
00:12:48.318 –> 00:12:50.658
MAGGIE: What are your reactions to those definitions?
00:12:50.658 –> 00:13:03.798
MAGGIE: And what would you add when you think about how we can root ourselves today in the definition of neurodivergence and the awareness that we should have from neurodivergence and neurotypical people?
00:13:09.393 –> 00:13:17.693
MAGGIE: I’m Maggie Olson, founder of Nova Chief of Staff Certification, the first of its kind online course for aspiring and existing Chiefs of Staff.
00:13:17.693 –> 00:13:29.833
MAGGIE: With curriculum taken directly from on-the-job responsibilities, Nova’s self-paced learning modules provides you with hands-on experience so you can feel competent and confident moving into a Chief of Staff-style role.
00:13:29.833 –> 00:13:32.853
MAGGIE: It’s the perfect next step for executive assistants.
00:13:32.853 –> 00:13:38.493
MAGGIE: Head to leaderassistant.com/nova to learn more, grab the syllabus, and enroll today.
00:13:42.653 –> 00:13:43.573
ELIANA: Yeah, absolutely.
00:13:43.573 –> 00:13:57.113
ELIANA: So I think one of the things, I’m a very visual person, so you can imagine like a gradient, like kind of like what I have in the background here maybe.
00:13:57.113 –> 00:14:02.193
ELIANA: You know, every single point on this gradient is different, just like all of our brains are different.
00:14:02.193 –> 00:14:07.833
ELIANA: But then if you think about a gradient like that, there’s also kind of like ranges.
00:14:07.833 –> 00:14:14.173
ELIANA: And so I like thinking about neurodivine reality as kind of like the most common like range of like human neurology.
00:14:14.173 –> 00:14:23.913
ELIANA: So even though every single brain is like different within that, you know, there’s kind of like group averages and ways that you know, certain traits tend to like cluster together.
00:14:23.913 –> 00:14:31.513
ELIANA: And then if you’re like have a brain that’s kind of like outside of that most common range, then you’re like neurodivergent.
00:14:31.513 –> 00:14:41.313
ELIANA: And so, you know, that can include differences of how you process information, how you learn, how you process your own emotions, how you communicate.
00:14:41.313 –> 00:14:44.513
ELIANA: So different things under those types of categories.
00:14:44.513 –> 00:14:59.393
ELIANA: I think too, one of the important things for me is thinking about sort of like power dynamics, because I think for a lot of times, people who are neurodivergent, you experience stigma, like ableism, discrimination in different settings.
00:14:59.393 –> 00:15:05.753
ELIANA: And so, you know, as you mentioned, a bit Maggie, you know, we might need to have more accommodations in different contexts.
00:15:05.753 –> 00:15:12.153
ELIANA: The world isn’t set up by default to support and accommodate us in many settings.
00:15:12.273 –> 00:15:15.373
ELIANA: And that’s kind of part of like not being part of that like majority range, right?
00:15:15.373 –> 00:15:22.273
ELIANA: So what works for the majority might not work for people who have different needs or, yeah, ways of showing up.
00:15:22.313 –> 00:15:40.133
ELIANA: And so a lot of times when you’re diverging people under spaces that are primarily designed by neurotypical people, it’s not like, you know, there’s an intentional like malice there, but sometimes it could be, it takes more work to make sure that that space really does like accommodate for everybody.
00:15:40.133 –> 00:15:46.613
ELIANA: And, you know, we’re accounting for those different power imbalances as well.
00:15:46.613 –> 00:15:48.313
MAGGIE: Yeah, yeah, that’s fair.
00:15:48.313 –> 00:15:49.153
MAGGIE: That makes a lot of sense.
00:15:50.233 –> 00:15:52.393
MAGGIE: Sydney, welcome.
00:15:52.393 –> 00:15:55.873
MAGGIE: I’d love to hear your thoughts on a bit.
00:15:55.873 –> 00:15:58.733
MAGGIE: So we, you know, we’re just going to dive right in here.
00:15:58.733 –> 00:16:10.453
MAGGIE: We’ve we’ve talked, you know, when we were kind of all meeting early on before this webinar around neurodivergence and neurotypical and what makes neurodivergence even harder, which is intersectionality.
00:16:11.593 –> 00:16:18.573
MAGGIE: And when we were all just on our panelists chat right before this, everybody said, I have a stimming tool.
00:16:18.913 –> 00:16:20.013
MAGGIE: You guys want to show what you had?
00:16:20.013 –> 00:16:21.293
MAGGIE: Jess, you want to show what you have?
00:16:21.293 –> 00:16:21.933
MAGGIE: Yeah.
00:16:21.933 –> 00:16:24.053
MAGGIE: So Sydney has perfect.
00:16:24.053 –> 00:16:25.733
MAGGIE: Yep.
00:16:25.733 –> 00:16:27.653
MAGGIE: Shea has one as well.
00:16:27.653 –> 00:16:40.213
MAGGIE: So Sydney, do you want to tell us a little bit about stimming and then maybe how intersectionality shows up in the example that you’ve previously given around maybe someone who’s stimming and they’re also of a different race?
00:16:40.213 –> 00:16:40.553
SYDNEY: Yeah.
00:16:40.553 –> 00:16:44.633
SYDNEY: So stimming is basically a way of self-regulation.
00:16:45.293 –> 00:16:52.833
SYDNEY: And so it can look like doing vocal stims, making sounds, doing physical actions, for example, mine are more physical.
00:16:52.833 –> 00:16:57.073
SYDNEY: So rocking back and forth, I do a sort of hand flap.
00:16:57.073 –> 00:17:00.233
SYDNEY: And I also, I do my hand flap in two different ways.
00:17:00.233 –> 00:17:03.253
SYDNEY: And so sometimes I do this and I’m excited.
00:17:03.413 –> 00:17:05.353
SYDNEY: And other times I do it closer to me.
00:17:05.353 –> 00:17:08.633
SYDNEY: And that means I’m stressed and anxious and need to calm down.
00:17:08.633 –> 00:17:13.913
SYDNEY: And so when you’re racialized, it can sometimes look different to other people.
00:17:13.913 –> 00:17:18.413
SYDNEY: And people can think it’s scary or think that’s the trigger of trying to hurt someone else.
00:17:18.413 –> 00:17:23.253
SYDNEY: Because, you know, when you lift your you know, keep your hands to yourself, that old saying.
00:17:23.253 –> 00:17:29.813
SYDNEY: And so when you lift your hands and you’re elevating them, people think that can pose different dangerous situations.
00:17:29.813 –> 00:17:31.973
SYDNEY: They say, Oh, you’re going to hurt me, you’re going to attack me, it’s just going to help.
00:17:31.973 –> 00:17:34.013
SYDNEY: I’m just trying to self-regulate.
00:17:34.013 –> 00:17:42.493
SYDNEY: And that thing that doesn’t happen to people that are not racialized, but it’s more likely to happen to people that are racialized, given the history and the racism that also exist.
00:17:42.493 –> 00:17:55.473
SYDNEY: And so being neurodivergent and being racialized, and that was intersectionality, and being female passing, all included intersectionality, and understanding how that impacts how someone shows up.
00:17:55.473 –> 00:18:05.873
SYDNEY: And so actually, with the stints that I do, I would actually hurt myself because I would try and contain that, for example, in a school setting.
00:18:05.873 –> 00:18:15.553
SYDNEY: I did it one time and my teacher yelled at me, and I was eight years old, and because I was doing this, because I was excited about what we were learning in class.
00:18:15.553 –> 00:18:18.253
SYDNEY: And she’s like, don’t do that, you’re going to hurt someone.
00:18:18.253 –> 00:18:20.753
SYDNEY: And so I reshuted in words.
00:18:20.753 –> 00:18:28.653
SYDNEY: And so instead of, I started doing this instead, and I would get bruises on my hands from trying to contain that.
00:18:28.653 –> 00:18:31.713
SYDNEY: And it was very difficult and very upsetting.
00:18:31.713 –> 00:18:37.973
SYDNEY: And I know we’re going to talk about masking later in the workplace, but started to mask those stims.
00:18:37.973 –> 00:18:47.213
SYDNEY: And it wasn’t until 2020 when I really sat with myself and was like, could be more me, because the world was shut down.
00:18:47.213 –> 00:18:59.113
SYDNEY: And I started doing them again and realizing that I used to do this more as a child, but it felt so good to release that happy thoughts and to release those anxieties I was feeling.
00:18:59.113 –> 00:19:01.633
MAGGIE: Wow.
00:19:01.633 –> 00:19:02.893
SYDNEY: That was a lot, I’m sorry.
00:19:02.933 –> 00:19:04.773
MAGGIE: No, no, I’m just happy.
00:19:04.773 –> 00:19:05.893
MAGGIE: Yeah, exactly.
00:19:07.333 –> 00:19:14.613
MAGGIE: Like, I’m thankful that 2020 gave you that time back with yourself to figure out what you needed.
00:19:14.613 –> 00:19:32.893
MAGGIE: It was making me think a little bit about, Jessica, what you were saying during your intro prior to diagnosis, and how for you that came out as depression and anxiety prior to realizing that you were actually neurodivergent, ADHD, autistic.
00:19:32.893 –> 00:19:34.813
MAGGIE: Do you want to talk a little bit about the diagnosis?
00:19:34.813 –> 00:19:48.733
MAGGIE: And Eliana and Sydney, feel free to jump in here after Jessica, too, if you think that there’s a little bit more to share around kind of that process of embracing your neurodivergence and how it feels now that you’re like, this is me and this is how I am.
00:19:48.733 –> 00:19:53.073
JESSICA: Yeah, what happened for me kind of similar was around 2020, we all start working from home.
00:19:53.073 –> 00:19:57.473
JESSICA: And prior to that, I had been on mental health leave for work.
00:19:57.473 –> 00:19:59.513
JESSICA: Like, I always really struggled with my mental health.
00:20:00.613 –> 00:20:03.433
JESSICA: I would do exceptionally well, and then I would burn myself out.
00:20:03.433 –> 00:20:08.613
JESSICA: And then I would just be left like a shell of a person and, you know, wanting to do bad things.
00:20:08.613 –> 00:20:12.533
JESSICA: And so 2020 hits and my life like immediately shifted.
00:20:12.533 –> 00:20:14.513
JESSICA: It was like, oh, my God, like, I love this.
00:20:14.513 –> 00:20:15.593
JESSICA: I love working from home.
00:20:15.593 –> 00:20:21.873
JESSICA: I love not being in an office because when I worked in an office, I was literally home every single day and just lay down in the dark room.
00:20:21.873 –> 00:20:26.113
JESSICA: I was so tired and I was like, oh, I have so much more energy.
00:20:26.113 –> 00:20:26.773
JESSICA: This is great.
00:20:26.993 –> 00:20:34.053
JESSICA: And I really started was like, oh, this is I can heal myself in a lot of ways and everything was going great.
00:20:34.053 –> 00:20:35.073
JESSICA: I was doing everything right.
00:20:35.073 –> 00:20:35.773
JESSICA: I had a job.
00:20:35.773 –> 00:20:37.253
JESSICA: I was I was nailing it.
00:20:37.253 –> 00:20:42.213
JESSICA: And yet I was still really sad and like I couldn’t quite figure it out.
00:20:42.213 –> 00:20:43.413
JESSICA: I was medicated.
00:20:44.793 –> 00:20:47.633
JESSICA: Anyway, I ended up burning myself at a job again because that’s what I do.
00:20:47.693 –> 00:20:50.933
JESSICA: And I had to quit very like just hard quit.
00:20:50.933 –> 00:20:55.013
JESSICA: And I started doing three things happened at the same time.
00:20:55.013 –> 00:20:58.853
JESSICA: A friend reached out to me and she’s a life coach and she teaches burlesque and she does a lot of cool things.
00:20:58.853 –> 00:21:01.313
JESSICA: And she was running a course called F Perfect.
00:21:01.313 –> 00:21:12.493
JESSICA: And it was all about how people who are socialized as women, we develop these like insane perfectionism techniques or like, yes, like we have to be perfect all the time.
00:21:12.493 –> 00:21:13.953
JESSICA: And it’s so stressful.
00:21:13.953 –> 00:21:17.533
JESSICA: And this is as soon as I started unpacking that, I learned it.
00:21:17.533 –> 00:21:18.333
JESSICA: It hit me really quickly.
00:21:18.333 –> 00:21:22.613
JESSICA: It’s like, oh my god, like I force this on myself all the time.
00:21:22.613 –> 00:21:24.673
JESSICA: I hold myself these incredibly high standards.
00:21:24.673 –> 00:21:27.513
JESSICA: Like I have to be above and beyond everyone.
00:21:27.513 –> 00:21:28.373
JESSICA: And it’s killing me.
00:21:28.373 –> 00:21:32.073
JESSICA: It’s quite literally going to kill me if I don’t stop.
00:21:32.073 –> 00:21:38.853
JESSICA: So simultaneously, my, at the time, 11 year old child started getting a cess for ADHD.
00:21:38.853 –> 00:21:42.633
JESSICA: And I said, well, no, they can’t have it because I did all those things.
00:21:42.633 –> 00:21:44.893
JESSICA: I did all those things as a child and I’m perfectly fine.
00:21:45.253 –> 00:21:46.413
JESSICA: I wasn’t.
00:21:46.413 –> 00:21:51.413
JESSICA: So very quickly realized I also was ADHD and I started therapy.
00:21:51.413 –> 00:22:03.273
JESSICA: And I really was able to unmask really quickly in that sense, because once I realized that I don’t have to be perfect, I don’t have to be fake in social situations.
00:22:03.273 –> 00:22:04.853
JESSICA: I can say, I’m tired now.
00:22:04.853 –> 00:22:08.613
JESSICA: And I can take care of myself in that way and leave.
00:22:08.733 –> 00:22:11.053
JESSICA: I was like, oh, this is great.
00:22:11.053 –> 00:22:11.813
JESSICA: I love myself.
00:22:11.953 –> 00:22:17.353
JESSICA: I love the person that I was before everybody told me not to be that person growing up.
00:22:17.353 –> 00:22:20.073
JESSICA: And it’s been so great for my mental health.
00:22:20.073 –> 00:22:22.513
JESSICA: And then shortly after, I realized I was autistic.
00:22:22.513 –> 00:22:27.973
JESSICA: But that was very much the sensory things kind of started showing up as soon as I started medicating the ADHD.
00:22:29.033 –> 00:22:32.113
JESSICA: But it’s really been an amazing process for me to unmask.
00:22:32.113 –> 00:22:45.333
JESSICA: But like Sydney talks about, there is so much societal, there’s issues attached to it, where I have privileges as a white woman, that others aren’t going to be accessing as well or as easily.
00:22:45.333 –> 00:22:49.133
JESSICA: And that’s why it’s so important to talk about this and say, no, you can speak up.
00:22:49.133 –> 00:22:54.613
JESSICA: Like you can say, I’m tired or this bothers me, or I’m going to wear my headphones or I’m going to do things like that.
00:22:54.613 –> 00:22:57.573
JESSICA: And it doesn’t make me weird.
00:22:57.573 –> 00:22:59.753
JESSICA: It just makes me a little different than other people.
00:22:59.753 –> 00:23:07.373
JESSICA: But the more that we know, the more we can empower others to also be able to access this level of healing and success in life.
00:23:08.033 –> 00:23:08.633
MAGGIE: Yeah.
00:23:08.633 –> 00:23:08.933
MAGGIE: Yeah.
00:23:08.933 –> 00:23:17.653
MAGGIE: You know, I’ve heard a few times from friends and people I’m working with that they figured out they had ADHD when their kids were getting diagnosed.
00:23:17.653 –> 00:23:23.773
MAGGIE: Because I also believe that women, you know, were just not diagnosed when we should be a lot younger, right?
00:23:23.773 –> 00:23:24.713
MAGGIE: It happens a lot later.
00:23:24.713 –> 00:23:31.293
MAGGIE: We’re much better at masking probably because of the perfectionism that is that we grew up in with society.
00:23:31.333 –> 00:23:37.073
MAGGIE: But yeah, I’m 2020, like really good things for both of you in that.
00:23:37.073 –> 00:23:37.973
MAGGIE: Eliana does.
00:23:37.973 –> 00:23:39.113
SYDNEY: Yeah.
00:23:39.253 –> 00:23:42.913
JESSICA: It happened to a lot, like a lot of, I speak to a lot of nerve divergence.
00:23:42.913 –> 00:23:43.813
JESSICA: And they’re like, yep, same thing.
00:23:43.813 –> 00:23:52.373
JESSICA: Like I just, I was at home and I didn’t have to show up professional every day and it was like, oh, I’m a totally different person when I don’t have expectations.
00:23:52.413 –> 00:23:53.473
JESSICA: Yeah.
00:23:53.473 –> 00:23:55.153
JESSICA: How I show up in society.
00:23:55.153 –> 00:23:55.633
MAGGIE: Yeah.
00:23:55.633 –> 00:23:56.533
MAGGIE: And I want to get back to this.
00:23:56.533 –> 00:24:05.313
MAGGIE: You literally said, and I think this is so important, you learned how to take care of yourself and that it was okay to take care of yourself, which is incredible.
00:24:05.313 –> 00:24:06.313
MAGGIE: So we’ll get there.
00:24:06.313 –> 00:24:08.433
MAGGIE: But Eliana, please weigh in.
00:24:08.433 –> 00:24:11.853
ELIANA: Yeah, this is actually my story as well to you.
00:24:11.893 –> 00:24:18.853
ELIANA: So when I was a good child, I actually had like a conspiracy theory that Walmart, like tries to make you sick when you go in.
00:24:18.853 –> 00:24:20.973
ELIANA: So then you’re like dizzy and like kind of out of it.
00:24:20.973 –> 00:24:22.113
ELIANA: So then you buy more things.
00:24:22.113 –> 00:24:24.133
ELIANA: And like, I really believe this.
00:24:24.133 –> 00:24:26.593
ELIANA: And like I really said, I had sensory needs at that point in time.
00:24:26.593 –> 00:24:30.273
ELIANA: But I remember, yeah, everything kind of stopping in 2020.
00:24:30.573 –> 00:24:33.253
ELIANA: And being home for the first time.
00:24:33.253 –> 00:24:39.033
ELIANA: And it was like, I had been experiencing almost like a brain fog for like a lot of my life.
00:24:39.033 –> 00:24:43.653
ELIANA: And it was the first time that I felt like I could really think clearly.
00:24:43.653 –> 00:24:50.633
ELIANA: And I really didn’t even recognize that I was getting overstimulated before because I was so used to just like pushing myself and pushing myself and pushing myself.
00:24:50.633 –> 00:24:54.973
ELIANA: And that was like my whole life was being in these environments and just, you know, what are the other options?
00:24:54.973 –> 00:24:58.473
ELIANA: I didn’t feel like, I just thought that like everybody moves through the world this way.
00:24:58.793 –> 00:25:06.233
ELIANA: And like, I didn’t realize that things could even be different until I had the opportunity to pause and realize like, whoa, is this what it’s like to be human?
00:25:06.233 –> 00:25:07.833
ELIANA: Like, it’s so nice.
00:25:09.053 –> 00:25:18.513
ELIANA: And I also like really experienced like major mental health disability stuff and burnout because similar to Jessica, I would just push myself.
00:25:18.513 –> 00:25:27.053
ELIANA: And I felt, you know, it got to the point where I don’t know, it was something that I felt like really like ashamed about because I felt like I also couldn’t talk about it.
00:25:27.133 –> 00:25:29.353
ELIANA: And I didn’t understand like what was going on.
00:25:29.353 –> 00:25:33.013
ELIANA: Like, I felt like, you know, I really asked him like, open these environments just fine.
00:25:33.013 –> 00:25:34.353
ELIANA: Like, why am I struggling?
00:25:34.353 –> 00:25:40.753
ELIANA: And then the thing to do is when you do with job, people often don’t reach out and say, you know, like, what’s going on?
00:25:40.753 –> 00:25:41.893
ELIANA: Like, how can I support you?
00:25:41.893 –> 00:25:50.813
ELIANA: They often take the approach of, you know, you’re being flaky or, you know, you’re being a difficult employee or even like amongst friends.
00:25:50.813 –> 00:25:52.853
ELIANA: Like, yeah, like, does she just not like us anymore?
00:25:52.913 –> 00:25:59.613
ELIANA: Like, there are a lot of, like, those, like, assumptions when, like, you do burn out and you kind of, like, I don’t know, withdraw and you just want to, like, lay underneath your blanket.
00:25:59.613 –> 00:26:20.313
ELIANA: And so I think just like as an actionable piece of advice, I definitely think, like, asking and not assuming is like a really good kind of, like, universal rule of thumb in these situations, but also like trusting people when they tell you what they need and, you know, assuming that they’re doing it, like, for the good of your company instead of, like, against it.
00:26:20.653 –> 00:26:23.993
ELIANA: Like, I hate all of these, like, mandated, like, return to office policies.
00:26:23.993 –> 00:26:24.933
ELIANA: Like, that’s really hard.
00:26:24.933 –> 00:26:26.313
ELIANA: Like, I work way better.
00:26:26.313 –> 00:26:50.433
ELIANA: I’m a million times more productive at home as a remote worker than I have ever been in an office setting when I’m there and I’m, like, forced to stare at my screen with, like, the fluorescent lights going on and there’s, like, the air conditioner, like, buzzing and I’m, like, oh my God, like, and so I think just, like, you know, being able to give people that flexibility and also, you know, it is kind of, like, a privilege to even be able to be open about your access needs at work.
00:26:50.433 –> 00:26:57.673
ELIANA: And so I think also creating a culture where it’s okay for, like, everybody to be able to advocate for what they need.
00:26:57.673 –> 00:27:04.313
ELIANA: And it’s not like you need to dispose a disability or an access need to, you know, even be able to have these options.
00:27:04.313 –> 00:27:08.893
ELIANA: I think that that just creates a better culture that supports everybody.
00:27:08.893 –> 00:27:19.193
ELIANA: And I think, too, one of the big things that really helped me in 2020 was just really internalizing the idea that there is really no one right way to think behavior exists.
00:27:19.193 –> 00:27:30.653
ELIANA: Because in those spaces, like, like there is, like, it’s like, you know, this is like how you’re like the ideal employee or this is like, you know, how you’re the ideal student or, you know, the ideal whatever.
00:27:30.653 –> 00:27:49.333
ELIANA: And so I think just like recognizing and really just trying to put that idea into practice, recognizing a lot of these norms, like are set by people that, you know, are like the default in these spaces and recognizing that, like, you know, it’s a good thing that we’re different in these ways and it’s okay to, I don’t know.
00:27:49.333 –> 00:27:50.153
ELIANA: Yeah.
00:27:50.153 –> 00:27:50.633
ELIANA: Yeah.
00:27:50.693 –> 00:27:52.073
ELIANA: I’m just kind of rambling now.
00:27:52.073 –> 00:27:53.673
ELIANA: That was kind of my experience.
00:27:53.673 –> 00:27:55.333
MAGGIE: Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:56.353 –> 00:28:02.873
MAGGIE: So why don’t we talk here about, I want to, I want to dive into the C-suite a little bit.
00:28:03.053 –> 00:28:07.853
MAGGIE: And I know, Jessica, you’ve got experience as an executive assistant, you know, business leaders.
00:28:07.853 –> 00:28:12.673
MAGGIE: Sydney, I believe that you also have, you know, worked with and trained folks who are in the C-suite.
00:28:12.673 –> 00:28:16.233
MAGGIE: Eliana, I know it’s like an adjacent, adjacent to your world.
00:28:19.173 –> 00:28:30.833
MAGGIE: Often business leaders and kind of the higher up you go, sometimes they’re actually not the best leaders, which kind of goes hand in hand with maybe not so much emotional intelligence.
00:28:31.993 –> 00:28:39.233
MAGGIE: Now, maybe on one side, it can be a little easier when it’s just order after order and things are really clear.
00:28:39.233 –> 00:28:50.893
MAGGIE: And maybe it can be a little harder when somebody can’t interpret nuance or be flexible in their approach or kind of tailor the environment or their demands based on the person they’re working with.
00:28:50.893 –> 00:28:53.873
MAGGIE: I think it can, there’s probably multiple sides here.
00:28:53.873 –> 00:29:12.433
MAGGIE: But I would love to hear, Jessica, let’s start with you, your experience around being neurodiverse with folks in the C-suite and how that shows up for you and your peers and the added pressure of kind of that environment where you talk about perfectionism.
00:29:12.433 –> 00:29:25.693
MAGGIE: It’s about looking the part, acting the part, having the executive presence, being polished, being prepared, being high achieving when you are probably like, I’m already burnt out, how do I do all these things and do my job successfully?
00:29:25.693 –> 00:29:30.913
MAGGIE: So talk to me a little bit about how you’ve interacted within the C-suite.
00:29:30.913 –> 00:29:38.573
JESSICA: So very lucky in the sense of when I was getting diagnosed, the person that I was supporting was like a decently decent human being.
00:29:38.573 –> 00:29:47.353
JESSICA: Like it was, it’s very eye-opening to me to work with a CEO like that because I have been treated so poorly in the past by like other executives.
00:29:47.353 –> 00:29:53.073
JESSICA: So it was really refreshing to be like, hey, I’m having a really bad mental health day, like I’m going to take it off.
00:29:53.073 –> 00:30:00.673
JESSICA: And like openly being able to say that to him without having to worry about him, like being awful about it.
00:30:00.673 –> 00:30:11.313
JESSICA: And I think that’s part of how I was able to actually unmask to and like excel was that like when you’re given the psychological safety within an organization to say like, I don’t understand.
00:30:11.313 –> 00:30:13.173
JESSICA: I think I made a mistake.
00:30:13.173 –> 00:30:17.153
JESSICA: I think I’m having a bad mental health day and I can’t handle just existing.
00:30:18.333 –> 00:30:35.173
JESSICA: Being able to comfortably say that is what’s going to give you employees that will ride or die for you, that are going to like care and like you’ll be able to access all this like, you know, ADHD superpower that they talk about is, you know, when I’m feeling like supported and you know, like I’m in a safe environment, like guess what?
00:30:35.173 –> 00:30:39.293
JESSICA: Like I genuinely am like the most ideal employee you’re ever going to have.
00:30:39.293 –> 00:30:40.633
JESSICA: But you don’t get that a lot.
00:30:40.633 –> 00:30:46.173
JESSICA: And unfortunately, that’s something that we have to address is, how do we teach emotional intelligence?
00:30:47.213 –> 00:30:59.413
JESSICA: I found gentle parenting as a technique really helpful with working with people because if you just talk to them really calmly and quietly and like, you know, in a chill way, you can kind of get it a little bit better.
00:30:59.413 –> 00:31:08.973
JESSICA: But I’m hoping to see the younger generations really, that’s kind of where my hope is at for creating these more like accommodating offices as people like yourself.
00:31:08.973 –> 00:31:11.593
JESSICA: Like my husband, for example, my husband is ADHD and he’s a VP.
00:31:11.873 –> 00:31:27.493
JESSICA: And to see him care for his employees the way that I’ve been cared for, in my past experience is really reaffirming to me that there is help for creating these more inclusive environments that are more supportive.
00:31:27.493 –> 00:31:40.373
JESSICA: And it really is just like to have more conversations like this, because people don’t even understand the intricacies, because they don’t understand themselves, because a lot of them haven’t taken the time to really learn themselves ins and out.
00:31:40.893 –> 00:31:48.393
JESSICA: The way that a lot of us do in like an eternal hope of like, how do I exist in this world in an okay manner?
00:31:48.393 –> 00:31:56.593
JESSICA: So I think that’s kind of one of the benefit of having somebody in your office that is neurodivergent is it gives you a different insight of like how things can operate.
00:31:56.593 –> 00:31:58.633
MAGGIE: Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:58.633 –> 00:32:15.473
MAGGIE: You know, I publicly shared my appreciation for Gen Z in requiring a much more flexible work environment and in requiring that work matters to your to your life as well.
00:32:15.473 –> 00:32:24.313
MAGGIE: And in advocating for themselves and not asking permission in the ways that they shouldn’t be asking permission for, like, I need to go to a doctor’s appointment.
00:32:24.313 –> 00:32:25.213
MAGGIE: Is that OK?
00:32:25.233 –> 00:32:27.953
MAGGIE: Like, Gen Z is out here saying, I have a doctor’s appointment.
00:32:27.953 –> 00:32:28.973
MAGGIE: I’ll be back at two.
00:32:28.973 –> 00:32:30.133
MAGGIE: Like, great.
00:32:30.353 –> 00:32:33.473
MAGGIE: I’m good with that as a leader, you know, like take initiative.
00:32:33.473 –> 00:32:36.513
MAGGIE: But I do think that there’s a lot that has come probably from 2020.
00:32:36.813 –> 00:32:42.473
MAGGIE: And also, just from this new generation, that I deeply feel that millennials, we just didn’t have.
00:32:42.473 –> 00:32:44.393
MAGGIE: Jessica, are you a millennial as well?
00:32:44.393 –> 00:32:45.093
MAGGIE: Yeah.
00:32:45.093 –> 00:32:47.953
MAGGIE: Sydney, are you Gen Z?
00:32:47.953 –> 00:32:51.873
SYDNEY: I’m confused at what I am because I’m 1997, and I was told I was a millennial.
00:32:51.873 –> 00:32:53.033
SYDNEY: Now I’m told I’m Gen Z.
00:32:53.033 –> 00:32:54.153
SYDNEY: So I’m just going to say I’m a millennial.
00:32:54.153 –> 00:32:55.673
MAGGIE: OK, you’re a millennial probably.
00:32:55.673 –> 00:32:57.793
MAGGIE: Eliana, how about you?
00:32:57.793 –> 00:32:58.853
ELIANA: I’m Gen Z.
00:32:58.853 –> 00:33:00.093
MAGGIE: OK, yeah.
00:33:00.093 –> 00:33:00.413
MAGGIE: Yeah.
00:33:00.413 –> 00:33:09.873
MAGGIE: And so I think that millennials, like, have had these feelings without the articulation or the, like, example of how to have those conversations.
00:33:09.873 –> 00:33:15.573
MAGGIE: We’ve just been following our, like, Gen X and Baby Boomer example of, like, oh, we got to show up and we got to…
00:33:15.573 –> 00:33:22.813
MAGGIE: And then now here we are with Gen Z working with us as peers or working for us, and we’re seeing what this can look like.
00:33:22.813 –> 00:33:25.073
MAGGIE: And it’s refreshing.
00:33:25.073 –> 00:33:26.093
MAGGIE: It’s very refreshing.
00:33:26.093 –> 00:33:36.873
MAGGIE: So I hope that that continues and that all of our, you know, slightly more flexible work environments can just continue to open up conversation and, I mean, drive productivity.
00:33:36.873 –> 00:33:42.873
MAGGIE: Like you guys have all said, you are way more productive in a place where you are comfortable and safe.
00:33:42.873 –> 00:33:44.433
MAGGIE: And that’s better for business, right?
00:33:45.473 –> 00:33:54.973
MAGGIE: So I want to talk about masking a bit before we get into some of the more specific things here so that the folks on the call understand all the terms that we’ve been using.
00:33:54.973 –> 00:33:56.753
MAGGIE: What is masking?
00:33:56.753 –> 00:33:58.753
MAGGIE: Sydney, do you want to take this one?
00:34:00.153 –> 00:34:03.393
SYDNEY: It’s like, I haven’t, it’s basically, I call it like a chameleon.
00:34:04.733 –> 00:34:16.213
SYDNEY: Because you kind of, and like shapeshifter almost because, for example, in high school, I felt like a chameleon because I would wear a different mask depending on who I was with.
00:34:16.413 –> 00:34:19.553
SYDNEY: I did drama and so I would put that mask on.
00:34:19.553 –> 00:34:23.233
SYDNEY: I’d hang out with the burnouts, put that mask on, hang out with the jocks, hang out with the nerds.
00:34:25.653 –> 00:34:37.533
SYDNEY: Sometimes masking to just fit into different situations basically, and not showing who you truly are and showing exhibits of displaying new and different traits.
00:34:38.633 –> 00:34:40.853
SYDNEY: It is exhausting.
00:34:40.853 –> 00:34:59.973
SYDNEY: So when 2020 happened, I know we’re talking a lot about 2020, but I agree with what Eliana said, and we’re just like I said, doing so much and to not let the mask slip, and just feeling like everyone else is keeping up, and to be a human means to be busy.
00:34:59.973 –> 00:35:04.213
SYDNEY: I was going to school full-time, almost working full-time hours.
00:35:04.213 –> 00:35:14.193
SYDNEY: I was actually helping kids, teens, and adults with disabilities that are also neurodivergent, and volunteering and doing all these things to get a career in human resources.
00:35:15.613 –> 00:35:19.193
SYDNEY: And so I didn’t realize how much of the time I was masking.
00:35:19.193 –> 00:35:25.373
SYDNEY: And sometimes now, I actually put the mask on, but my mask looks different now.
00:35:25.373 –> 00:35:28.673
SYDNEY: It’s like I still try and be me, but sometimes, okay.
00:35:28.673 –> 00:35:40.093
SYDNEY: Still have to put on and hide some of my traits, and for our safety, we have to mask, because sometimes we feel like we would be discriminated or not fully understood if we show our traits.
00:35:41.093 –> 00:35:45.193
SYDNEY: And especially as a racialized individual, I feel like it’s like almost double masking.
00:35:45.193 –> 00:35:48.153
SYDNEY: It feels like there’s like that thick hoop.
00:35:48.153 –> 00:36:11.173
SYDNEY: But really understanding that masking, I was like, oh, it’s good that you mask, and it leads to a severe burnout because you have to do the task, and you’re also exuding energy to do the day-to-day tasks, so by being a different person or stifling parts of you.
00:36:12.013 –> 00:36:14.353
SYDNEY: And people don’t realize how exhausting that is.
00:36:14.353 –> 00:36:26.813
SYDNEY: And I think when, again, when the pandemic first happened, and actually because I had to do my internship, but we had a little bit of internship started, and school actually offered us that.
00:36:26.813 –> 00:36:33.773
SYDNEY: And so we had like four weeks between school and my internship, and I slept a long time during those times.
00:36:33.773 –> 00:36:42.073
SYDNEY: And I realized that I was so tired from all the tasks, and the energy, and that I wasn’t being most authentically me.
00:36:42.073 –> 00:36:44.613
SYDNEY: And really I’m saying, okay, who is Sydney?
00:36:44.993 –> 00:36:46.433
SYDNEY: What do I want to do?
00:36:46.433 –> 00:36:50.313
SYDNEY: And okay, how do I show up in the world?
00:36:50.313 –> 00:37:09.693
SYDNEY: Is it because I want to be most me, where I can be me, where I can also be safe, and working in remote environments, having different things, being around my loved ones, and really understanding who I am, and that I don’t have to mask with the time.
00:37:09.693 –> 00:37:15.113
SYDNEY: And for example, I remember the first time I didn’t mask in a remote environment, I was so scared.
00:37:16.333 –> 00:37:22.173
SYDNEY: And I was like, I’m going to get burnt out, and I don’t want to do anything if I don’t.
00:37:22.173 –> 00:37:24.333
SYDNEY: So I am masked.
00:37:24.333 –> 00:37:26.053
SYDNEY: And it was very scary.
00:37:27.593 –> 00:37:30.553
SYDNEY: And I was really working with them for a little bit.
00:37:30.613 –> 00:37:33.073
SYDNEY: And they’re like, oh, you acted kind of different the other day.
00:37:33.073 –> 00:37:33.953
SYDNEY: Is everything okay?
00:37:33.953 –> 00:37:38.693
SYDNEY: And I was like, well, that’s actually like, you know, more closely to who I am.
00:37:38.693 –> 00:37:42.233
SYDNEY: And it wasn’t, they said it wasn’t that big of a difference, but it was a noticeable difference.
00:37:42.233 –> 00:37:46.153
SYDNEY: And so I think that was really interesting.
00:37:46.153 –> 00:37:48.873
MAGGIE: Absolutely.
00:37:48.873 –> 00:38:17.633
MAGGIE: So part of this conversation, you know, we’ve been talking a lot about, a lot about a lot, masking and diagnosis and accommodations, but there’s a lot of research out there that shows that certain conditions like autism, dyslexia, bestow actually like really special skills in a lot of ways, pattern recognition, memory, mathematics, autism often presents higher IQ scores than average.
00:38:17.633 –> 00:38:23.733
MAGGIE: Neurodiverse teams are 30% more productive than neurotypical ones and make fewer errors.
00:38:23.733 –> 00:38:32.333
MAGGIE: Sadly, on the flip side of that, neurodivergent people have a lot harder time finding employment and are often higher unemployment rates.
00:38:32.333 –> 00:38:38.313
MAGGIE: But that’s why we’ve got people like you guys leading amazing companies out there to help change this and Shay too, which is great.
00:38:38.313 –> 00:38:49.213
MAGGIE: But I want to talk a little bit about the special strengths that neurodivergent people have and how people at work can leverage their neurodivergent peers.
00:38:49.213 –> 00:38:55.333
MAGGIE: We can get into also the flip side of like, okay, how do we make it a neurodivergent and inclusive environment?
00:38:55.393 –> 00:39:03.313
MAGGIE: But right now, I really want to talk about the strengths and what’s so special about having neurodivergent people on our team.
00:39:03.313 –> 00:39:05.453
MAGGIE: Eliana, do you want to start with this one?
00:39:06.673 –> 00:39:08.033
ELIANA: I can.
00:39:08.033 –> 00:39:08.973
ELIANA: Give me one second.
00:39:08.973 –> 00:39:13.773
ELIANA: I’m just I like have a resource on this that I’m opening up just because I have.
00:39:16.613 –> 00:39:18.613
MAGGIE: Yeah, take your time.
00:39:18.613 –> 00:39:33.093
ELIANA: But yeah, there’s definitely for this kind of conversation, I always like to have a caveat that every single person, even within the neuro type category, even us as 80 years, we all have different strengths for all different styles.
00:39:33.293 –> 00:39:48.993
ELIANA: I would still take a very individualized approach in your workplace, but the reality is to the people with different neuro types do tend to cluster towards having a consolation of different strengths as well.
00:39:49.173 –> 00:39:53.933
ELIANA: So I’m happy to talk about that a little bit.
00:39:53.933 –> 00:40:06.153
ELIANA: Also, just because somebody has strengths doesn’t mean that, of course, they don’t have support needs as well, because I think sometimes people also assume that if you’re really good at some things, then suddenly you don’t need any support in any other areas, and that’s totally not the case.
00:40:06.153 –> 00:40:08.093
MAGGIE: It’s like masking the other need that you need.
00:40:09.093 –> 00:40:18.873
ELIANA: Yeah, and a lot of neurodivergent people have spiky profiles, and so you might have some strengths, but then you also might have some things in other areas that you really need support with.
00:40:19.193 –> 00:40:19.873
MAGGIE: Yeah.
00:40:20.113 –> 00:40:24.993
ELIANA: But yeah, so I can definitely talk about some of these.
00:40:24.993 –> 00:40:29.493
ELIANA: So one research paper came out about people with developmental dyslexia.
00:40:30.893 –> 00:40:35.473
ELIANA: There’s some theorizing that their brains are more specialized for exploration, so that’s kind of cool.
00:40:37.413 –> 00:40:44.033
ELIANA: Also, people who are dyslexic tend to have more curiosity and be visionary.
00:40:44.033 –> 00:40:53.073
ELIANA: Tons of strong visual-spatial thinking skills are going to kind of harnessing the team strengths and delegating tasks and tend to be very proactive.
00:40:53.073 –> 00:40:54.753
ELIANA: I have a bunch of different ones.
00:40:54.753 –> 00:40:57.593
ELIANA: I don’t know how much detail I should get into, but I can kind of talk about some.
00:40:57.693 –> 00:41:03.853
MAGGIE: Well, we can send out resources after this as well in our post-recap call, for sure.
00:41:04.753 –> 00:41:06.933
MAGGIE: Jessica, anything you want to add to this conversation?
00:41:06.933 –> 00:41:10.533
MAGGIE: And I mean, I might take it a bit of a step further.
00:41:11.093 –> 00:41:17.293
MAGGIE: There’s a few different schools of thought around the term superpower, right?
00:41:17.293 –> 00:41:23.333
MAGGIE: And then you compare the term superpower to calling neurodivergence a difficulty or an issue.
00:41:23.333 –> 00:41:25.693
MAGGIE: So how do you use language?
00:41:25.693 –> 00:41:32.173
MAGGIE: How do you suggest people use language to talk about neurodivergence when it comes to strengths and opportunities?
00:41:35.553 –> 00:41:38.473
JESSICA: I’m not going to have a very educated opinion about this.
00:41:38.473 –> 00:41:39.173
MAGGIE: That’s OK.
00:41:39.173 –> 00:41:41.053
JESSICA: I probably would.
00:41:41.053 –> 00:41:49.653
JESSICA: This kind of circles back to the idea of that I have a lot of privilege that has allowed me to excel is that I was in a supportive environment.
00:41:50.293 –> 00:41:52.233
JESSICA: I have universal health care because I’m in Canada.
00:41:53.993 –> 00:41:56.153
JESSICA: I had a therapist.
00:41:56.153 –> 00:41:57.913
JESSICA: I had all these resources.
00:41:57.913 –> 00:42:06.273
JESSICA: And because of that, I was able to tap in to my unique skills and all these things that I would not have been able to access when I was burned out.
00:42:06.313 –> 00:42:12.633
JESSICA: And I was so exhausted because when you’re in survival mode 24-7, you don’t get to be exceptional.
00:42:12.633 –> 00:42:14.033
JESSICA: You get to survive.
00:42:14.033 –> 00:42:18.933
JESSICA: And you get to do it and show up and then go home and lay in your room all day or all night.
00:42:19.893 –> 00:42:26.273
JESSICA: So, if we can start talking about, not just how do we accommodate you, but how do we help you thrive?
00:42:26.273 –> 00:42:30.353
JESSICA: How do we help you show up in the workforce to be the best version of yourself?
00:42:31.413 –> 00:42:33.113
JESSICA: That’s the privilege.
00:42:33.113 –> 00:42:38.513
JESSICA: That’s the, you get to use my skills to amplify your business and do all these things.
00:42:38.513 –> 00:42:43.433
JESSICA: Because I do have amazing things like, I have really great pattern recognition.
00:42:44.913 –> 00:42:54.573
JESSICA: One of my great, the best things of being an executive assistant is, it’s really easy to speak to a bunch of different people and pull together a full picture of a problem the way that other people wouldn’t.
00:42:54.573 –> 00:42:59.473
JESSICA: My brain makes connections that a lot of other brains don’t.
00:42:59.473 –> 00:43:01.253
JESSICA: That’s part of my inner gift.
00:43:01.253 –> 00:43:14.433
JESSICA: But like I said, if I’m so tired because you make me show up in an office every day and sit under this bright light with a lot of noise, and you’re not acknowledging my cries for help, then you’re going to get the burnt out shell of a person.
00:43:14.693 –> 00:43:21.093
JESSICA: And that’s really what it roots down to is, how do we create this more inclusive environment so that we can excel?
00:43:21.093 –> 00:43:21.393
MAGGIE: Yeah.
00:43:21.393 –> 00:43:22.473
MAGGIE: How do we help you thrive?
00:43:22.473 –> 00:43:23.053
MAGGIE: I love that.
00:43:23.053 –> 00:43:28.253
MAGGIE: I mean, it’s great for anybody, and it’s great for neurodivergent people for sure.
00:43:28.253 –> 00:43:35.293
MAGGIE: Sydney, do you have anything to add around the language of, what’s your superpower versus the opportunity or difficulty or issue?
00:43:35.293 –> 00:43:38.373
MAGGIE: There’s so many different people saying so many different things, right?
00:43:38.373 –> 00:43:43.733
MAGGIE: And how do we help people understand the best way to talk about neurodivergence that’s respectful?
00:43:44.633 –> 00:43:48.933
SYDNEY: Yeah, I think when a lot of people say, oh, that’s your superpower.
00:43:48.933 –> 00:43:53.993
SYDNEY: And it’s like, do you say that to neurodivergent folks, do you say that to people that don’t?
00:43:53.993 –> 00:43:58.033
SYDNEY: Because we all have our different superpowers, again, neurodivergent or not.
00:43:58.033 –> 00:44:00.393
SYDNEY: And so what do you actually mean you say that?
00:44:00.393 –> 00:44:04.553
SYDNEY: And I think using all the, oh, what do you think, what do you like to do?
00:44:04.553 –> 00:44:06.953
SYDNEY: What are you passionate about instead?
00:44:06.953 –> 00:44:16.333
SYDNEY: And then focusing on those passions and realizing that someone might be good at something, but they’re not passionate about it or vice versa.
00:44:16.333 –> 00:44:18.653
SYDNEY: They might be passionate, but it might not be the strong suit.
00:44:18.653 –> 00:44:20.633
SYDNEY: Okay, but you want to develop that passion more.
00:44:20.633 –> 00:44:22.493
SYDNEY: Okay, this is how we can get you there.
00:44:22.493 –> 00:44:28.953
SYDNEY: On the flip side, this is your strength, and you’re passionate about something.
00:44:28.953 –> 00:44:33.633
SYDNEY: And so really meeting people where they’re at, I think is super important.
00:44:34.493 –> 00:44:41.413
SYDNEY: And like Eliana said about just because someone’s really good at something, and maybe we’re asking the other part that needs that support.
00:44:41.413 –> 00:44:48.273
SYDNEY: And so really seeing the person for the whole person they bring, and even that things can look different every day.
00:44:48.273 –> 00:44:57.813
SYDNEY: Like Jessica was just hinting at, it’s like if I’m not in a conducive environment, I’m tired, my superpower or my strength that I’m so good at, I’m not going to be as good at today.
00:44:57.813 –> 00:45:00.013
SYDNEY: And so we said, oh, you’re usually really good at that.
00:45:00.013 –> 00:45:01.233
SYDNEY: What happened?
00:45:01.653 –> 00:45:02.433
SYDNEY: Did you have a bad night?
00:45:02.513 –> 00:45:03.673
SYDNEY: Like, oh, is something happening?
00:45:03.673 –> 00:45:04.833
SYDNEY: Are you okay?
00:45:04.833 –> 00:45:08.493
SYDNEY: And it’s like, I’m human, I’m going to not have great days.
00:45:08.493 –> 00:45:17.093
SYDNEY: And so for example, I do a lot of policy work right now with some of my clients, and my brain fog is so bad right now.
00:45:17.993 –> 00:45:19.513
SYDNEY: I apologize in advance.
00:45:19.513 –> 00:45:22.233
SYDNEY: I can revisit this when the brain fog goes away.
00:45:22.233 –> 00:45:26.673
SYDNEY: I’m usually really good at policies and love doing policies.
00:45:26.733 –> 00:45:29.713
SYDNEY: And so, you know, but they’re like, oh, that’s your super power.
00:45:29.713 –> 00:45:33.753
SYDNEY: I’m like, right now, I don’t, you know, and that’s my strength.
00:45:33.753 –> 00:45:39.593
SYDNEY: And that, you know, right now, I am human and I’m having a moment where I can’t.
00:45:40.273 –> 00:45:41.293
MAGGIE: Yeah, absolutely.
00:45:41.293 –> 00:45:42.973
MAGGIE: Eliana, please.
00:45:42.973 –> 00:45:54.153
ELIANA: Yeah, I think for me and a lot of other Gen Z neurodivergent people, like a lot of us really don’t resonate with superpower language because it does feel, somebody put in the chat and I agree, it feels kind of patronizing and also very otherizing.
00:45:54.153 –> 00:45:57.973
ELIANA: Like we all have strengths and weaknesses, like just as like human beings.
00:45:57.973 –> 00:46:02.373
ELIANA: And so when you’re like ADHD is your superpower, I’m like, what does that mean?
00:46:02.373 –> 00:46:05.173
ELIANA: And it also feels very like one-dimensional.
00:46:05.173 –> 00:46:08.053
ELIANA: You know, like ADHD for me, like I do definitely have strengths.
00:46:08.053 –> 00:46:10.673
ELIANA: And that’s definitely related to like the way that my brain functions.
00:46:10.673 –> 00:46:13.273
ELIANA: But I also do have like access and support needs.
00:46:13.273 –> 00:46:16.473
ELIANA: Personally, I also like saying like disabled is not a bad word.
00:46:16.473 –> 00:46:22.173
ELIANA: Like, you know, and I don’t, I know not all neurodivergent people, like identifies as disabled and like that’s okay.
00:46:22.173 –> 00:46:27.613
ELIANA: But I think that, you know, a lot of us do and there’s nothing wrong with being disabled.
00:46:27.613 –> 00:46:33.973
ELIANA: There’s nothing wrong with having like other like access needs and, you know, needing environmental supports or whatever else.
00:46:33.973 –> 00:46:40.853
ELIANA: And so, you know, I like saying, you know, I have ADHD, to me, it is a disability, but that doesn’t also mean that it’s only like a negative thing.
00:46:40.853 –> 00:46:50.413
ELIANA: And I think that that’s also like a common misconception is that disability is like framed in this very like negative ones, instead of just like another way of like being your existing.
00:46:50.413 –> 00:46:53.193
ELIANA: And so, yeah, I don’t know.
00:46:53.193 –> 00:47:00.533
ELIANA: I know there’s also like a lot of power in like, you know, being in disability community with like all these other disabled people.
00:47:00.533 –> 00:47:02.613
ELIANA: And we’re all like, you know, working together and sharing tips.
00:47:02.613 –> 00:47:06.073
ELIANA: And sometimes, you know, I want tips from like my friends with like chronic illnesses.
00:47:06.073 –> 00:47:10.033
ELIANA: And I don’t have a chronic illness, but some of that stuff like really does help in like an ADHD context too.
00:47:10.073 –> 00:47:12.553
MAGGIE: So yeah, yeah.
00:47:12.553 –> 00:47:18.473
MAGGIE: So here’s a question just off the cuff as a I’ve been a people leader for a few decades now.
00:47:18.473 –> 00:47:30.153
MAGGIE: Let’s say that I have someone on my team who has not told me that they are neurodivergent, but maybe I’ve seen a few things that to me may indicate that they are.
00:47:30.153 –> 00:47:31.833
MAGGIE: What’s my best path forward?
00:47:31.833 –> 00:47:37.993
MAGGIE: Do I say, do I approach the neurodivergence head on and bring it up?
00:47:38.113 –> 00:47:42.293
MAGGIE: Or do I say, how could I make work the best I can for you?
00:47:42.293 –> 00:47:45.833
MAGGIE: What kind of environment do you need to succeed?
00:47:45.833 –> 00:47:46.393
MAGGIE: Option two?
00:47:46.393 –> 00:47:48.013
SYDNEY: I think option two.
00:47:48.013 –> 00:47:55.613
SYDNEY: And I always say to the managers and people leaders, you might see it because you saw you had another employee.
00:47:55.613 –> 00:48:01.133
SYDNEY: And if you had another employee that was autistic or had another employee that has a disability, you worked with that one employee.
00:48:01.133 –> 00:48:04.313
SYDNEY: Because a lot of times people are like, oh, I accommodated in another autistic employee.
00:48:04.313 –> 00:48:05.853
SYDNEY: I’m going to get the same employee.
00:48:05.853 –> 00:48:06.553
MAGGIE: I know how to do that.
00:48:07.093 –> 00:48:11.013
SYDNEY: And it’s like, this is two different people in two different situations.
00:48:11.013 –> 00:48:13.653
SYDNEY: And so just ask me, hey, I see you’re struggling a bit.
00:48:13.653 –> 00:48:14.693
SYDNEY: Am I correct?
00:48:14.693 –> 00:48:15.993
SYDNEY: How can I support you?
00:48:15.993 –> 00:48:18.413
SYDNEY: Do you need anything from me to best be able?
00:48:18.413 –> 00:48:19.933
SYDNEY: What tools can I give you?
00:48:19.933 –> 00:48:20.713
SYDNEY: And what resources?
00:48:20.713 –> 00:48:23.773
SYDNEY: Or do you need anything from me to better do your job?
00:48:23.773 –> 00:48:27.393
SYDNEY: And really, having that human connection, having that human conversation.
00:48:27.393 –> 00:48:34.453
SYDNEY: I think a lot of times employers or managers and people leaders think that they have to have all the answers.
00:48:35.133 –> 00:48:39.193
SYDNEY: And want to just go ready and have the solutions for the employee.
00:48:39.193 –> 00:48:44.213
SYDNEY: But really working with that employee and not really talking to them.
00:48:44.213 –> 00:48:47.233
SYDNEY: You can have those things in your back pocket to pull from.
00:48:47.233 –> 00:48:51.933
SYDNEY: And the employee doesn’t really know what they need and talking them through and having some solutions ready.
00:48:51.933 –> 00:48:55.133
SYDNEY: But people know, we know what we need to be successful.
00:48:55.133 –> 00:49:05.353
SYDNEY: And sometimes we don’t know exactly in that moment, but having that conversation, talking it out, we’ll get to the reason of the tools and the resources we need to be successful.
00:49:05.353 –> 00:49:08.813
SYDNEY: And just really listening to the person and seeing what they need in that moment.
00:49:08.813 –> 00:49:12.913
SYDNEY: It could just be something else is going on that’s contributing to the day.
00:49:12.913 –> 00:49:14.013
SYDNEY: What does that look like?
00:49:14.013 –> 00:49:18.573
SYDNEY: And so just asking, hey, how can I best support you?
00:49:18.573 –> 00:49:21.753
SYDNEY: Is it today or in the long run?
00:49:21.753 –> 00:49:27.313
MAGGIE: Yeah, and I think that’ll open the door for the conversation to go further if the employee wants to share more.
00:49:28.613 –> 00:49:31.953
MAGGIE: Yeah, so we have a really good question in the chat here.
00:49:31.953 –> 00:49:38.813
MAGGIE: Of course, we’ve got a lot of C-suite folks on, a lot of chiefs of staff and people with eyes on the C-suite as a future goal.
00:49:38.833 –> 00:49:43.673
MAGGIE: How would you, and please let me know who wants to answer this question.
00:49:43.673 –> 00:49:53.633
MAGGIE: How would you guide somebody who is not in the C-suite yet, but who is neurodivergent in preparing to work in the C-suite?
00:49:53.633 –> 00:49:54.773
MAGGIE: What can they work on?
00:49:54.973 –> 00:49:59.913
MAGGIE: How do they maximize their opportunity?
00:49:59.913 –> 00:50:03.213
MAGGIE: How do they prepare for the environment of the C-suite?
00:50:03.213 –> 00:50:10.033
MAGGIE: And how do they potentially navigate their neurodivergence, looking ahead towards a role in the C-suite?
00:50:10.033 –> 00:50:15.453
SYDNEY: I think it’s such with understanding your strengths and what you would bring to that position.
00:50:15.513 –> 00:50:22.473
SYDNEY: I think a lot of this with a lot of perception of what a founder is supposed to look like, or people that are supposed to look like.
00:50:22.473 –> 00:50:26.493
SYDNEY: And you can get training on the intricacies of that.
00:50:26.493 –> 00:50:28.653
SYDNEY: But what are the strengths you’re bringing to the team?
00:50:28.653 –> 00:50:29.373
SYDNEY: What are the strengths?
00:50:29.373 –> 00:50:31.493
SYDNEY: What do you want to change in this environment?
00:50:31.493 –> 00:50:36.153
SYDNEY: Is there anything that needs to be addressed?
00:50:36.153 –> 00:50:45.553
SYDNEY: And really focusing on your strengths and who you are as a person, and your experiences that help shape you to get you to go into the C-suite.
00:50:45.553 –> 00:50:52.233
SYDNEY: And I think sometimes even with people who are in the C-suite, they sometimes forget the humbling beginnings.
00:50:52.233 –> 00:50:53.233
SYDNEY: I think it’s a huge problem.
00:50:53.233 –> 00:51:01.093
SYDNEY: And so really understanding where you came from and the impact you want to make in C-suite.
00:51:01.093 –> 00:51:07.173
SYDNEY: And not focusing much on C-suite, which is usually known as a paradigmic and having power.
00:51:07.173 –> 00:51:09.213
SYDNEY: But okay, what impact do you want to leave instead?
00:51:09.213 –> 00:51:19.813
SYDNEY: And how do you want to, you know, if you are narrative in yourself and you’re going to the C-suite, how do you want to make things for other people that are narrative like you in the workplace?
00:51:19.813 –> 00:51:23.573
SYDNEY: And it’s like, how is the culture currently doing in this regard?
00:51:23.573 –> 00:51:31.173
SYDNEY: And really, you know, focusing on yourself and your experiences, but also the impact you want to make for your employees.
00:51:32.533 –> 00:51:33.933
MAGGIE: Yeah, absolutely.
00:51:33.933 –> 00:51:49.673
MAGGIE: You know, I’d add on top of that, which is pretty much close to exactly what you’re saying, Sydney, is to add on, reach out to as many people as possible in the current environment that you’re looking to move in to C-suite or not, and just start having conversations.
00:51:49.673 –> 00:51:57.153
MAGGIE: And like Sydney is saying, like, start to understand what the work environment is like, and then start to feel like, does that feel safe to you?
00:51:57.593 –> 00:52:03.693
MAGGIE: Does that feel like a place where you can shine and grow and feel good?
00:52:03.693 –> 00:52:21.533
MAGGIE: But in neurotypical conversations as well, it’s like start having those conversations, seek people out who are in those environments, and then seek out the environment you want to work in, especially if it’s within your own company, and start to get familiar with the people who were there, which will make things feel a lot more safe, hopefully.
00:52:21.533 –> 00:52:27.113
MAGGIE: Or you’ll be like, nope, this is not for me, and which is also really good information to have.
00:52:28.613 –> 00:52:29.913
MAGGIE: Yeah, Eliana.
00:52:29.913 –> 00:52:38.573
ELIANA: Yeah, just with the concept of reaching out, I know I would also definitely try and find other neurodivergent people in the C-suite to talk to, and form those.
00:52:38.573 –> 00:52:55.513
ELIANA: I’m obviously biased because peer mentorship is our whole thing, but definitely those peer mentorship relationships can actually help so much, just hearing how other people have navigated the situation, bring up a specific conversation you’ve had with one of your bosses, and hearing how other people would respond to that, and whether they’ve gone through something similar.
00:52:55.513 –> 00:53:13.813
ELIANA: Just having awareness within your organization can be really helpful, but also just across different organizational contexts, and seeing how other people with summer life experiences, whether you’re neurodivergent or feel like you were laid, or you have other experiences in addition to being neurodivergent, that impact your experiences as a leader.
00:53:13.813 –> 00:53:20.533
ELIANA: Just connecting with other people who share that stuff, and having honest conversations in the safe environment can really be game-changing.
00:53:20.573 –> 00:53:22.853
ELIANA: So you can join AndiConnect for that.
00:53:22.853 –> 00:53:32.853
ELIANA: But also, you can even search on LinkedIn like neurodivergent, like CFO or whatever, and then see who comes up, especially because a lot more of us are openly identified.
00:53:32.853 –> 00:53:33.473
MAGGIE: Yeah.
00:53:33.473 –> 00:53:33.873
MAGGIE: Yeah.
00:53:33.873 –> 00:53:40.173
MAGGIE: It’s been really fun connecting with all three of you to see the networks that you have and to see my feed change.
00:53:40.173 –> 00:54:00.653
MAGGIE: And now I’m learning a ton more than I knew before, especially before this call around neurodivergence, and seeing other thought leaders in this space in addition to you guys, talking about how to help our peers and how to learn and grow and understand things better and be better allies and function also as neurodivergent people.
00:54:00.653 –> 00:54:04.453
MAGGIE: So there’s a lot of resources out there on the web.
00:54:04.453 –> 00:54:08.993
MAGGIE: But I do think there’s a connection point to Eliana’s point.
00:54:08.993 –> 00:54:10.853
MAGGIE: ND Connect, go check it out.
00:54:10.853 –> 00:54:22.513
MAGGIE: We’ll send, like I mentioned earlier, we’ll send a recap of this call via email with the recording and with everybody’s personal notes, LinkedIn profiles, companies, and some resources for everybody.
00:54:22.513 –> 00:54:25.233
MAGGIE: With that, I’m going to continue to go through a few more questions.
00:54:25.233 –> 00:54:28.913
MAGGIE: Feel free to pop any questions you have into the Q&A portion of this chat.
00:54:28.913 –> 00:54:36.513
MAGGIE: We’re not monitoring the chat today, but the Q&A box down below, we have a lot of questions in there, which is great.
00:54:36.513 –> 00:54:39.373
MAGGIE: So feel free to add your questions there.
00:54:39.833 –> 00:54:54.213
MAGGIE: So what are some ways that workplaces and maybe peers also, like let’s talk about workplaces and let’s talk about neurotypical peers, can make their environments more inclusive for their neurodivergent peers?
00:54:54.213 –> 00:55:11.773
MAGGIE: Obviously, we could talk about lighting or sound or cameras and surveys and all the things, but from your perspective, what’s the best way that companies, and we talked about having an open conversation, but when it comes to tactical things that companies can do, what are those things?
00:55:11.773 –> 00:55:13.853
MAGGIE: Does anybody want to, Eliana, do you want to start with that?
00:55:14.673 –> 00:55:16.253
MAGGIE: We’ll go to Jessica next.
00:55:16.253 –> 00:55:16.733
ELIANA: Definitely.
00:55:17.133 –> 00:55:48.013
ELIANA: I think one thing, there’s some really interesting ways to drown this, where we already talked about the concept of ask, don’t assume, but I think that’s really important to take a very individualized approach, because there’s a lot of times where there’s a manager, and they’re operating in good faith, but a new employee will enter that company, they’ll know that that employee is autistic or something similar, and then that employee will be put in a corner by themselves, to have a quieter work environment because people know that autistic people may get more over-stimulated sometimes.
00:55:48.013 –> 00:55:56.473
ELIANA: But making sure that it’s not just about productivity, but it’s also about how does this person fit into the broader organization?
00:55:56.473 –> 00:55:57.633
ELIANA: Do they feel like they belong?
00:55:57.633 –> 00:56:00.613
ELIANA: Are social opportunities inclusive to them?
00:56:00.613 –> 00:56:06.313
ELIANA: Are you introducing them and helping them get their foot in the door and meet people in leadership?
00:56:06.313 –> 00:56:08.893
ELIANA: So I would really take a broader approach to that.
00:56:08.893 –> 00:56:15.313
ELIANA: The other thing is, I’d say just in general, like offer as much flexibility as possible and believe people about their needs and experiences.
00:56:16.493 –> 00:56:23.553
ELIANA: You know, in camp and meetings, for example, have a default that people can participate with, like their cameras off, cameras on, in chat, out loud.
00:56:23.553 –> 00:56:31.473
ELIANA: You know, you can even model as a leader, like sitting on the floor, you know, like, and it can sound a little bit funky, but like you have a lot of power just being in a leadership position.
00:56:31.473 –> 00:56:50.973
ELIANA: And so, you know, making it, making like an accessibility statement like that, and like not penalizing people for participating, but encouraging people to really like show up in the way that meets their needs, and like you being vulnerable and also showing up in the way that meets your needs, I think, can make a huge difference.
00:56:50.973 –> 00:56:57.353
ELIANA: And this is something that I really like to have everybody reflect on in organizations because we all have access needs, like that’s the reality.
00:56:57.353 –> 00:57:05.053
ELIANA: It’s just that a lot of times neurotypical people don’t think about them as much because the environments are set up more by default to support you.
00:57:05.093 –> 00:57:06.313
ELIANA: But think about it.
00:57:06.313 –> 00:57:10.873
ELIANA: It doesn’t have to be like, I have ADHD, so that’s why I need XYZ.
00:57:10.873 –> 00:57:17.533
ELIANA: It can be, I’m somebody who really benefits from a quiet work environment, or I really direct feedback.
00:57:17.533 –> 00:57:25.433
ELIANA: And so having the whole team reflect and also share what their access needs are, kind of separate from any diagnosis, I think can make a huge difference.
00:57:25.433 –> 00:57:32.613
ELIANA: And then trying to set up the environmental conditions and the processes and the structures within each team to really support people.
00:57:33.353 –> 00:57:40.213
ELIANA: And as new people join, also expect the norms of your team dynamics to also change, because everybody is different and has different needs.
00:57:40.213 –> 00:57:42.913
ELIANA: So being adapted and flexible that way.
00:57:42.913 –> 00:57:45.233
MAGGIE: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
00:57:45.233 –> 00:57:47.433
MAGGIE: Jessica, anything to add there?
00:57:47.433 –> 00:57:48.113
JESSICA: Yeah, a few things.
00:57:48.113 –> 00:57:55.013
JESSICA: So when we talked previously in our prep call, we talked about, Shay had mentioned he uses a Working With Me document.
00:57:55.013 –> 00:57:58.793
JESSICA: And I think those are really great for leadership to put into place.
00:57:58.793 –> 00:58:01.533
JESSICA: It sets a clear expectation of how we communicate.
00:58:01.673 –> 00:58:05.353
JESSICA: And I think all employees should really be doing that because I have that information about you.
00:58:05.353 –> 00:58:11.093
JESSICA: It makes it easier for me to adjust when I’m speaking to you and how I’m addressing things.
00:58:11.093 –> 00:58:13.993
JESSICA: When I was an executive assistant, I did a lot of offsite planning.
00:58:13.993 –> 00:58:22.433
JESSICA: And because I’m aware of what accommodations make me more comfortable, I’m able to create a more comfortable environment for my fellow teammates.
00:58:22.433 –> 00:58:27.893
JESSICA: So I would make sure that I scheduled breaks between the sessions, like decent sized breaks.
00:58:28.073 –> 00:58:33.493
JESSICA: And everybody had a couple hours to chill before they’re expected to come to an evening event.
00:58:33.493 –> 00:58:34.593
JESSICA: Lots of downtime.
00:58:34.593 –> 00:58:35.653
JESSICA: Quiet rooms are really great.
00:58:35.653 –> 00:58:42.373
JESSICA: When I’m doing speaking events, I always appreciate if there’s a quiet space that I can go to get ready to speak.
00:58:42.373 –> 00:58:48.413
JESSICA: And then when I was onboarding employees as well, something that I would do is I would just break down social norms within the organization.
00:58:48.413 –> 00:58:53.673
JESSICA: So the thing about cameras being off, it’s like, hey, you can leave your camera off.
00:58:53.673 –> 00:58:54.953
JESSICA: It’s really not a big deal.
00:58:54.953 –> 00:58:56.413
JESSICA: There’s no expectation to have it on here.
00:58:57.273 –> 00:58:59.733
JESSICA: We do this, and this is why we do that.
00:58:59.733 –> 00:59:07.693
JESSICA: Something as a nerd a virgin is I don’t ever take orders without asking why.
00:59:07.693 –> 00:59:09.973
JESSICA: I always need to know why.
00:59:09.973 –> 00:59:17.913
JESSICA: So being open to answering questions about things and getting more context, because the more context I have, the more that I can like…
00:59:17.953 –> 00:59:27.833
JESSICA: I’m almost like Chat GPT in that way, where the more context I have, the more I can filter down my answer to you and give you the most specific best answer.
00:59:27.833 –> 00:59:35.053
JESSICA: So that was another thing I liked about The Last of You that I supported, is that when he would ask me to do something, I’d be like, okay, here’s 17 questions.
00:59:35.673 –> 00:59:43.313
JESSICA: He would give me a much better response, and I was able to go with that, but I cannot deal with ambiguity even in the slightest.
00:59:43.393 –> 00:59:48.013
JESSICA: I need details, I need information, and I can go from there.
00:59:48.013 –> 01:00:02.793
JESSICA: So I always try and provide a lot of information and context and explain that I am completely open to a dialogue with people because I haven’t always been made to feel that way in my life where I was allowed to have an open dialogue about why we’re doing what we’re doing.
01:00:02.793 –> 01:00:05.293
MAGGIE: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
01:00:05.833 –> 01:00:08.853
MAGGIE: I want to ask another C-suite question here.
01:00:08.853 –> 01:00:28.473
MAGGIE: For neurodivergent leaders, especially when they’re in the C-suite, if they’re leading a large team and maybe they are consciously or unconsciously wanting to set an example for people on their greater team, potentially neurodivergent people on their team.
01:00:28.473 –> 01:00:36.113
MAGGIE: Do you suggest that they unmask a bit or talk openly about their neurodivergence?
01:00:36.113 –> 01:00:47.753
MAGGIE: It’s such a personal decision, but how would you recommend a neurodivergent leader approach unmasking to help people on their team feel more comfortable in their neurodivergence?
01:00:47.753 –> 01:00:48.513
MAGGIE: Who would like to take this?
01:00:48.513 –> 01:00:49.393
MAGGIE: Sydney?
01:00:49.473 –> 01:01:04.073
SYDNEY: I think understanding that representation matters, and a lot of times neurodivergent folks and disabled folks don’t see themselves in places of higher leadership, such as the C-suite.
01:01:05.873 –> 01:01:32.213
SYDNEY: I think it could be a huge opportunity in reflecting on, again, your own experiences and it’s like, what do you wish someone had to love for you when you were in the entry level, or when you were in a lower position at the company or in other companies, and recognizing your privilege to be in this place, but also understanding that you have to come from a place of safety and being safe for yourself at the same time.
01:01:32.953 –> 01:01:44.973
SYDNEY: And so understanding that people are disclosing at a lower level in your organization that they’re nearer to verge and that they’re struggling with this.
01:01:44.973 –> 01:01:57.993
SYDNEY: And I actually spoke at a company and the CEO disclosed and wanted to do this training because she disclosed to her team and disclosed to her company that she was nearer to verge and very open about that.
01:01:57.993 –> 01:02:38.773
SYDNEY: And I think just the more open you can be in understanding that, you know, again, that impact I mentioned earlier and, you know, realizing, OK, how do you want to shape this company as a leader and understanding and recognizing your own privilege and this really unique opportunity you’re given to, you know, let people at lower levels, oh, wait, wait, it’s possible to become a C-suite leader in this company and being nearer to verge because I think a lot of times we think that, oh, we had to be in only entry-level positions or we can only do certain jobs because that’s how media and how it’s been portrayed.
01:02:38.773 –> 01:02:42.113
SYDNEY: And so to see ourselves in these positions is so important.
01:02:44.773 –> 01:02:48.653
SYDNEY: And I’m a founder, I’m a CEO technically of a company.
01:02:48.653 –> 01:02:58.473
SYDNEY: And I recognize my privilege to be able to be a racialized person that’s also nearer to virgins in this space.
01:02:58.473 –> 01:03:05.293
SYDNEY: And so I think recognizing the importance that you’re going to have showing employees.
01:03:05.293 –> 01:03:14.813
SYDNEY: And if you want to have a more inclusive culture and really walk the walk and talk the talk, it starts from there.
01:03:14.813 –> 01:03:19.793
SYDNEY: And I think we’ll have a better trickle down effect if you’re open about that.
01:03:19.793 –> 01:03:20.113
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.
01:03:20.113 –> 01:03:33.593
SYDNEY: Because I think a lot of times it doesn’t trickle down as effectively, and it’s not really fully understood, or it’s a huge mess sometimes.
01:03:33.593 –> 01:03:49.773
SYDNEY: And so by being more open and vulnerable, and you don’t have to disclose exactly what needs to be done unless you feel safe, but just even saying, hey, I’m neurodivergent, that is so powerful and can impact the company in such a positive way.
01:03:52.073 –> 01:03:53.473
MAGGIE: Yeah.
01:03:55.853 –> 01:04:00.373
MAGGIE: I mean, representation matters is absolutely right.
01:04:00.373 –> 01:04:03.413
MAGGIE: And we’re all on our own personal journey and different stages of that journey.
01:04:03.413 –> 01:04:06.453
MAGGIE: But I think it’s a really, really good point.
01:04:06.453 –> 01:04:09.153
MAGGIE: Eliana, question to you.
01:04:09.153 –> 01:04:15.593
MAGGIE: What do you wish neuro-typical people did more of and less of when interacting with you?
01:04:18.133 –> 01:04:18.713
ELIANA: Good question.
01:04:18.713 –> 01:04:20.053
ELIANA: I have to go back for a second.
01:04:22.053 –> 01:04:28.573
ELIANA: Okay, I think this is just this is a very like personal one, just based off of my own access needs and how I show up in spaces.
01:04:28.573 –> 01:04:35.773
ELIANA: But people often assume that I am nervous because I talk really fast.
01:04:35.773 –> 01:04:40.193
ELIANA: And so it’d be nice to just know that like people have different talking speeds and like you can tell me to slow down.
01:04:40.193 –> 01:04:47.493
ELIANA: But I think not like assuming that I’m like rushing or whatever, based off of how I communicate would be really helpful.
01:04:48.573 –> 01:04:55.053
ELIANA: Another thing is that I’m a very curious person, so I ask a lot of questions.
01:04:55.053 –> 01:04:58.953
ELIANA: And sometimes I think people are not used to that directness.
01:04:58.953 –> 01:05:06.133
ELIANA: And so it can make them feel like even if I’m very direct, like I really want to move forward with you in a partnership.
01:05:06.133 –> 01:05:07.953
ELIANA: I just want to understand like how it’s going to work.
01:05:07.953 –> 01:05:11.653
ELIANA: So, you know, let me just be clear that like, yes, I want us to move forward.
01:05:12.413 –> 01:05:16.453
ELIANA: Me asking questions isn’t expressing hesitation, but I have a lot of questions.
01:05:16.453 –> 01:05:21.353
ELIANA: But then people will still, even if I make that very direct statement, people think I’m not being honest.
01:05:21.353 –> 01:05:23.753
ELIANA: I’m like, can you listen to me?
01:05:23.753 –> 01:05:25.353
ELIANA: I’m telling you exactly what I’m thinking.
01:05:25.353 –> 01:05:26.753
ELIANA: I’m a very trans person.
01:05:27.193 –> 01:05:29.493
ELIANA: There’s no other layer to my communication.
01:05:29.493 –> 01:05:40.413
ELIANA: So can you just take my word for what I’m directly saying to you and not try and read into the social cues where we might be having some communication difficulties?
01:05:40.413 –> 01:05:44.093
ELIANA: And so that’s a common point of frustration where I’m like…
01:05:46.493 –> 01:05:48.053
MAGGIE: I feel you on that one.
01:05:48.073 –> 01:05:54.613
ELIANA: One thing that I wish people did more of is also, yeah, tell me how to best communicate with you.
01:05:54.613 –> 01:05:56.513
ELIANA: Tell me how to best support you in the workplace.
01:05:56.513 –> 01:05:58.373
ELIANA: Tell me what you need as a peer.
01:05:58.433 –> 01:06:02.133
ELIANA: You know, I think the thing is that…
01:06:02.133 –> 01:06:13.613
ELIANA: Oh, and also treat any communication breakdowns or conflicts as happening relationally between two people, instead of the blame for that falling within any one person.
01:06:13.613 –> 01:06:26.853
ELIANA: And so I think that commitment to giving each other the benefit of the doubt, to working through issues collaboratively as a team, kind of like what people do in healthy relationships or healthy marriages, like applying that to work context too.
01:06:26.853 –> 01:06:34.773
ELIANA: But I think that that kind of view and commitment to seeing each other as positive collaborators, that we’re figuring things out together.
01:06:34.773 –> 01:06:42.353
ELIANA: And if something happens that goes wrong, like we’re a team trying to figure out how to set up systems or processes to help support both of us.
01:06:42.353 –> 01:06:52.213
ELIANA: And this is not happening again next time, versus it being like, you know, you have a very chaotic communication style and it’s really unclear to me, and it’s your fault, communicate clearly, you know, or like vice versa.
01:06:52.253 –> 01:06:57.413
ELIANA: So like, I think that like I should also be like, how can I best accommodate and support your communication needs here?
01:06:57.413 –> 01:07:02.073
ELIANA: And so that kind of approach is something that I really love about my team.
01:07:02.073 –> 01:07:09.433
ELIANA: And it takes some time to implement sometimes, but yeah, I think that’s kind of like the thing that I love the most.
01:07:09.433 –> 01:07:10.593
MAGGIE: I love that.
01:07:10.593 –> 01:07:19.953
MAGGIE: I have a few questions from the audience that I’m going to go into, unless Jessica or Sydney, you had anything else to add on what you prefer neurotypical people do or don’t do differently.
01:07:21.053 –> 01:07:22.513
MAGGIE: Eliana covered it.
01:07:22.513 –> 01:07:23.173
MAGGIE: Sydney, you got one?
01:07:23.633 –> 01:07:25.113
SYDNEY: I feel like Eliana mostly covered it.
01:07:25.113 –> 01:07:35.073
SYDNEY: I think realizing that I really like what I said before, some days I can get things, other days I can’t.
01:07:35.073 –> 01:08:01.593
SYDNEY: And for example, if I get enough sleep, with all these different factors, and if I had, like I said, the CPTSD, so if I had a nightmare on edge more, what does that look like if it’s an anniversary, a traumatic event, and just really being patient, and being patient with me, being patient with yourself as you’re learning how to best communicate with me and navigate that.
01:08:04.133 –> 01:08:24.313
SYDNEY: It’s a two-way street in really understanding that we always want to be understood at the end of the day, neurodivergent or not, and so just adding that little bit of care and wanting to understand, coming from a mutual place of wanting to understand, and that mutual care is so important.
01:08:24.313 –> 01:08:26.453
MAGGIE: Yeah, I love that addition.
01:08:27.493 –> 01:08:29.193
MAGGIE: I’ve got some good questions from the audience here.
01:08:29.393 –> 01:08:32.833
MAGGIE: So we’re going to start with this one from Anonymous.
01:08:32.833 –> 01:08:39.753
MAGGIE: What are some tips for navigating perfection as the only thing tolerated in C-suite environments?
01:08:39.753 –> 01:08:42.613
MAGGIE: Jessica, do you want to take this one?
01:08:42.613 –> 01:08:46.433
JESSICA: Their expectations are not my problem.
01:08:46.433 –> 01:08:50.293
JESSICA: They are not a reflection of who I am at the end of the day.
01:08:50.293 –> 01:08:53.733
JESSICA: Depersonalizing, that is a big help for me.
01:08:54.593 –> 01:08:56.233
JESSICA: I know that I’m doing my best.
01:08:56.233 –> 01:09:00.073
JESSICA: I know that I’m working within the confines that I’ve been given.
01:09:01.113 –> 01:09:12.333
JESSICA: And I know that you can lead groups of people and employees with respect and dignity and kindness, even if they’re making a mistake.
01:09:12.333 –> 01:09:22.933
JESSICA: So if I’m being treated really poorly because I make a small mistake where it’s just really flippant, that’s a sign for me that that’s not the environment for me.
01:09:22.933 –> 01:09:37.773
JESSICA: And I’m going to go and I’m going to find somewhere that’s going to treat me with respect, because that’s a problem where they cannot see their own flaws enough to recognize, oh, they’re a human being too, and they’re going to make mistakes.
01:09:38.893 –> 01:09:39.653
JESSICA: But it is possible.
01:09:39.653 –> 01:09:41.713
JESSICA: It’s completely possible, because I do it every day.
01:09:41.713 –> 01:09:48.533
JESSICA: And I watch my husband do it with his team, where it’s like you can treat people decently, even if they made a mistake.
01:09:48.533 –> 01:09:50.673
JESSICA: So I don’t think there’s a way to work around it.
01:09:50.673 –> 01:09:58.193
JESSICA: And I’m no longer at a point in my career where I’m going to sacrifice my well-being for somebody else’s lack of healing.
01:09:59.113 –> 01:10:02.073
JESSICA: I’m not going to disturb my peace that way.
01:10:02.073 –> 01:10:19.913
JESSICA: So I think that getting honest with yourself about who you are and the work that you’re doing and is this actually fulfilling to me, is actually probably what needs to be focused on more of like, how do I actually shift my career to be in a place that supports me and can see me as a person?
01:10:21.173 –> 01:10:23.793
JESSICA: And your career doesn’t have to stop.
01:10:23.793 –> 01:10:25.793
JESSICA: There’s plenty of other places.
01:10:25.793 –> 01:10:35.833
JESSICA: And sometimes we learn about ourselves in a role, and then we can take that and bring it to our next job and start with new boundaries and new expectations of how we’re allowed to be treated.
01:10:35.833 –> 01:10:37.073
MAGGIE: Yeah, absolutely.
01:10:37.073 –> 01:10:48.713
MAGGIE: And I think that there are a lot of environments out there that have more of a culture of failing fast, learning from your mistakes, and going quick, you know, moving on.
01:10:48.713 –> 01:10:51.693
MAGGIE: In addition to vulnerability over perfection.
01:10:51.693 –> 01:10:56.573
MAGGIE: I know that that’s been one of my biggest leadership lessons over the last 20 years of leading people.
01:10:56.573 –> 01:10:58.013
MAGGIE: Perfectionism wasn’t it.
01:10:58.013 –> 01:11:00.133
MAGGIE: You can’t relate to people when you’re perfect, right?
01:11:00.133 –> 01:11:09.993
MAGGIE: You can relate to people when you’re vulnerable and you make a mistake and you talk about moving on and moving up and recovering and how things make you feel and relating to the people that work with you.
01:11:09.993 –> 01:11:13.273
MAGGIE: So you know, Jessica, I think you put that really, really well.
01:11:13.493 –> 01:11:21.213
MAGGIE: And if it’s not your environment, if the environment doesn’t feel right, then it might be time to find a new one.
01:11:21.213 –> 01:11:25.453
MAGGIE: OK, so here’s another question from Millie.
01:11:25.453 –> 01:11:28.513
MAGGIE: I am an EA supporting an ADHD business owner.
01:11:28.513 –> 01:11:32.833
MAGGIE: What advice would you give to providing the best support possible?
01:11:34.773 –> 01:11:36.333
JESSICA: Ask a lot of questions.
01:11:36.333 –> 01:11:37.273
JESSICA: Ask a lot of questions.
01:11:37.273 –> 01:11:38.813
JESSICA: Talk to people.
01:11:38.853 –> 01:11:47.013
JESSICA: That’s how I did it was, you know, people, we see this different ation a lot of times where EAs will come to me and say, oh, you know, how can I be a strategic business partner?
01:11:47.013 –> 01:11:50.533
JESSICA: And it’s like, oh, well, I just went and I talked to everybody in the company.
01:11:50.533 –> 01:11:52.133
JESSICA: And then I started solving problems.
01:11:52.133 –> 01:11:56.893
JESSICA: And I think that’s how I was able to give amazing service.
01:11:56.893 –> 01:12:02.793
JESSICA: But support was that I uniquely understood the company in a way that nobody else did.
01:12:02.793 –> 01:12:08.613
JESSICA: And so I was a great sounding board because they could come to me and be like, oh, like, what’s the feel on this?
01:12:08.613 –> 01:12:10.953
JESSICA: Like, you know, what’s the general mood?
01:12:10.953 –> 01:12:14.053
JESSICA: And I was able to like speak to that kind of information.
01:12:14.053 –> 01:12:18.593
JESSICA: So I think it’s about once again, like embracing, like, what am I actually really good at?
01:12:18.593 –> 01:12:19.813
JESSICA: I’m a really good connector.
01:12:19.813 –> 01:12:24.953
JESSICA: I’m really great at figuring out point A and point B and solving a problem based off of it.
01:12:24.953 –> 01:12:33.053
JESSICA: So, you know, it’s less about how do I fit myself into this box of what society has said great support is and how to be a perfect executive assistant.
01:12:33.053 –> 01:12:35.473
JESSICA: And more about this is a unique situation.
01:12:35.573 –> 01:12:36.553
JESSICA: This is a unique person.
01:12:36.553 –> 01:12:37.353
JESSICA: I’m a unique person.
01:12:37.353 –> 01:12:43.893
JESSICA: Like, how can I synergize that and embrace it and excel in that way?
01:12:43.893 –> 01:12:48.593
ELIANA: One of the things that I would add, like, and like, I agree with Jessica, but, like, everybody’s different, ask a lot of questions.
01:12:48.593 –> 01:12:57.973
ELIANA: I know that’s really good advice, but some 80s peers might not have as much self-awareness around executive functioning difficulties.
01:12:57.973 –> 01:13:01.733
ELIANA: And, like, I’m really lucky because I feel like I have a language to advocate for what my needs are.
01:13:02.273 –> 01:13:11.793
ELIANA: But that is, like, a common thing that, like, a lot of ADHD founders say, like, that’s, like, the main thing that gets in the way of them being successful in different domains of their business.
01:13:11.793 –> 01:13:24.533
ELIANA: So I would say if you can, like, look into that a little bit, just even if this person doesn’t struggle with it, or struggle with, like, all of the executive functions, I think having that awareness and then being able to also identify, like, okay, this person might need some support with task initiation.
01:13:24.533 –> 01:13:27.233
ELIANA: These are some specific strategies that can, like, help with that.
01:13:27.233 –> 01:13:30.573
ELIANA: And, like, being able to have that sort of, yeah, like, awareness.
01:13:30.653 –> 01:13:32.653
ELIANA: I know in my life, that, like, makes a huge difference.
01:13:32.653 –> 01:13:37.013
ELIANA: So there’s one person on my team who, like, really understands that stuff and, like, really supports me with it.
01:13:37.013 –> 01:13:41.573
ELIANA: And it’s very, very game-changing just having somebody who’s like, hey, I know you need reminders.
01:13:41.573 –> 01:13:42.413
ELIANA: Here’s your reminder.
01:13:42.413 –> 01:13:42.933
ELIANA: Here’s the meeting.
01:13:42.933 –> 01:13:44.933
ELIANA: Like, here’s the information you need.
01:13:44.933 –> 01:13:54.693
ELIANA: And so I think if you are working with ADHD-ers, that you’re looking to support understanding that specifically to be really helpful.
01:13:54.693 –> 01:13:56.773
MAGGIE: Yeah, I love all of that.
01:13:56.773 –> 01:13:58.573
MAGGIE: And the comment section does too, which is great.
01:13:59.693 –> 01:14:00.733
MAGGIE: So much for turning off comments.
01:14:01.493 –> 01:14:03.053
MAGGIE: I’m happy they’re on.
01:14:04.593 –> 01:14:07.073
MAGGIE: Okay, so this is from Adita.
01:14:07.073 –> 01:14:13.933
MAGGIE: I see representation in the C-suite in my company, but they conform to neurotypical standards.
01:14:13.933 –> 01:14:18.073
MAGGIE: Maybe to obviously accept, maintain power, keep themselves safe.
01:14:18.073 –> 01:14:21.053
MAGGIE: There’s a lot of reasons this could be the case.
01:14:21.053 –> 01:14:27.593
MAGGIE: But Adita is wondering how can they be there on authentic self and still climb up the ladder to C-suite?
01:14:28.213 –> 01:14:33.773
MAGGIE: I have some thoughts as a career coach, but I want to hear from you guys first.
01:14:33.773 –> 01:14:42.553
MAGGIE: Thoughts on how they manage this when they are seeing a little representation, but they’re conforming to neurotypical standards.
01:14:43.273 –> 01:14:51.193
MAGGIE: I’ll take what I can here because I think we’ve discussed a lot with panelists on different ways to advocate for yourself.
01:14:51.193 –> 01:15:01.813
MAGGIE: My suggestion is what I also share with neurotypical people is to document and track your wins and start to learn and get comfortable articulating them.
01:15:01.813 –> 01:15:06.373
MAGGIE: Different ways to do that is create a wins folder, literally just in your inbox.
01:15:06.373 –> 01:15:08.933
MAGGIE: If somebody gives you good feedback, drag and drop.
01:15:08.933 –> 01:15:11.833
MAGGIE: You can also do this in folders in your share drive or wherever.
01:15:13.233 –> 01:15:31.053
MAGGIE: When you get to the point of having a difficult conversation or an exciting conversation about transition, go back to that wins folder, organize your thoughts, and as I mentioned, practice talking about what you’ve done well and what you’re really good at and your contribution to your business.
01:15:31.053 –> 01:15:42.473
MAGGIE: If you feel comfortable, also talk about your neurodivergence or the ways that you feel most supported and how that support enables you to be an even better employee.
01:15:42.473 –> 01:15:56.373
MAGGIE: This is a little bit more of just a generic neurotypical response as well, but document your wins, start getting comfortable talking about what you’re good at, and identify mentors in your company who can help advocate for you.
01:15:56.373 –> 01:16:04.333
MAGGIE: So a lot of those conversations around high potential employees and next steps and promotions are happening behind closed doors that you are not in.
01:16:04.333 –> 01:16:20.833
MAGGIE: Having people who know your name, who you’ve done a solid project for, who you have told the amount of great work that you’ve done to, and they have that fresh on their mind and they bring that up to their peer who’s looking for the person to move on to their team, these are all really good things.
01:16:20.833 –> 01:16:29.613
MAGGIE: So personal advocacy, being learning how to tell your story and tracking those wins is what I would say there.
01:16:29.613 –> 01:16:40.013
MAGGIE: Back to the panelists here, what are your thoughts on sharing your neurodivergence when having interviews or filling out job applications?
01:16:40.013 –> 01:16:43.313
MAGGIE: We have multiple questions about that.
01:16:43.313 –> 01:16:53.893
JESSICA: When I started looking for a job after I got laid off, I found very quickly they stopped responding to me if I said that I was ADHD and that I had some accommodations that I would need.
01:16:54.413 –> 01:16:58.253
JESSICA: I don’t recommend disclosing in the interview process, to be totally honest.
01:16:58.253 –> 01:17:06.533
JESSICA: I think for your best success, don’t and then later on you can start talking about it once you are securely in your job.
01:17:06.533 –> 01:17:18.653
JESSICA: It’s part of the reason why I feel like it’s my responsibility to talk about that I’m ADHD, is like I am in a position of privilege where like nobody’s going to punish me for talking about it online or things like that.
01:17:20.433 –> 01:17:25.693
JESSICA: And I think that every time you acknowledge it publicly, you’re kind of taking away from the stigma and the shame about it.
01:17:25.693 –> 01:17:27.773
JESSICA: And I’m saying it’s a morally neutral thing to be.
01:17:27.773 –> 01:17:32.053
JESSICA: But unfortunately, there are people who don’t see it that way at the current moment.
01:17:32.053 –> 01:17:36.753
JESSICA: And in this job environment, especially you really have to advocate for yourself in the best way possible.
01:17:36.753 –> 01:17:39.873
JESSICA: And unfortunately, it’s not always safe.
01:17:39.873 –> 01:17:40.433
JESSICA: I wish it was.
01:17:41.173 –> 01:17:42.773
MAGGIE: Yeah, I would agree.
01:17:42.773 –> 01:17:45.033
MAGGIE: Did you have something quick to add, Eliana?
01:17:45.033 –> 01:17:46.713
ELIANA: Yeah, I think I agree with that generally.
01:17:46.713 –> 01:17:55.653
ELIANA: But there’s one caveat, which is a lot of people in our community have gotten interviews through referrals from other people who share neurotypes.
01:17:55.653 –> 01:17:57.633
ELIANA: So if you’re talking to…
01:17:57.633 –> 01:18:08.673
ELIANA: Sometimes if you have an ADHD or who’s an HR manager or something similar, they’re hosting the job and they’re open about it, whether that’s on LinkedIn or more in a private or divergence-oriented space.
01:18:08.673 –> 01:18:16.333
ELIANA: Definitely, like to suppose in those contexts, is what I would say, especially because those shared similarities can also be helpful in you.
01:18:16.333 –> 01:18:17.073
MAGGIE: Yeah.
01:18:17.073 –> 01:18:19.993
ELIANA: I’m more likely to get it and want to be part of it.
01:18:19.993 –> 01:18:21.113
ELIANA: So yeah.
01:18:21.113 –> 01:18:23.633
MAGGIE: Do your research, know your people, know who’s connecting you.
01:18:23.633 –> 01:18:24.253
MAGGIE: Yep.
01:18:24.253 –> 01:18:25.733
MAGGIE: I love all of that.
01:18:25.733 –> 01:18:27.093
MAGGIE: Back to a language question here.
01:18:27.093 –> 01:18:31.453
MAGGIE: So really probably only time for maybe one more question after this.
01:18:31.453 –> 01:18:32.793
MAGGIE: We’ve gotten a few questions about this.
01:18:34.013 –> 01:18:40.573
MAGGIE: How do you feel about the language, the medical language of diagnosis when it refers to neurodivergent?
01:18:40.573 –> 01:18:42.913
MAGGIE: Is it a neutral term?
01:18:42.913 –> 01:18:44.013
MAGGIE: Is it a negative term?
01:18:44.013 –> 01:18:44.573
MAGGIE: Is it positive?
01:18:44.573 –> 01:18:46.613
MAGGIE: Is it helpful?
01:18:46.613 –> 01:18:47.553
MAGGIE: Who wants to take this one?
01:18:47.553 –> 01:18:50.133
MAGGIE: Or maybe you have different differing views.
01:18:50.453 –> 01:18:54.933
SYDNEY: I think it’s interesting because now people are also doing self-diagnosis.
01:18:54.973 –> 01:19:03.753
SYDNEY: And I think when it comes down to do you think it’s going to help you better be supported in your work environment and your day-to-day life?
01:19:03.753 –> 01:19:05.773
SYDNEY: You know, what does that actually mean?
01:19:05.773 –> 01:19:08.493
SYDNEY: I think that I see both sides of the coin, if I’m honest.
01:19:08.493 –> 01:19:17.233
SYDNEY: I think it’s stemmed from getting that support and being more understood and also for your safety.
01:19:17.233 –> 01:19:29.513
SYDNEY: And so safety is number one at the end of the day, kind of to your previous question as well, that if someone feels safe to say their diagnosis, they feel safe and vulnerable enough to express that.
01:19:29.513 –> 01:19:33.653
SYDNEY: But it should not, I don’t think it’s a bad thing in this context.
01:19:33.653 –> 01:19:43.473
SYDNEY: I think sometimes people feel you could also use it to twist or have a certain perception of you in the head or have a bias towards you.
01:19:43.473 –> 01:19:57.593
SYDNEY: And so I think really understanding that it should stem from, okay, would this allow me to have better support and to live a more compelling life and to do work that I’m proud of and that I’m passionate about?
01:19:57.593 –> 01:20:03.613
SYDNEY: And well, and if I’m around people, they will not take advantage if I do say my diagnosis.
01:20:03.613 –> 01:20:10.073
SYDNEY: And that understand that it just, I want to say that because it’s going to help them understand me more.
01:20:10.073 –> 01:20:14.573
SYDNEY: And I feel like I could do better and thrive more if I do disclose.
01:20:14.573 –> 01:20:16.093
MAGGIE: Yeah.
01:20:16.093 –> 01:20:16.873
MAGGIE: Well, thank you for that.
01:20:16.873 –> 01:20:17.713
MAGGIE: We are at time.
01:20:17.833 –> 01:20:22.713
MAGGIE: I’d like to share a fun fact that that last question came from the Mensa Foundation.
01:20:22.713 –> 01:20:24.313
MAGGIE: So thank you for being with us.
01:20:24.313 –> 01:20:27.053
MAGGIE: What a cool organization to have on our call.
01:20:27.053 –> 01:20:29.613
MAGGIE: And wow, I have goosebumps.
01:20:29.613 –> 01:20:31.453
MAGGIE: I’ve learned a lot.
01:20:31.453 –> 01:20:40.553
MAGGIE: I feel humbled and like I’ve got a million more questions and just so thankful to have Jessica, Eliana and Sydney here.
01:20:40.553 –> 01:20:46.273
MAGGIE: I appreciate all three of you for coming on and driving awareness and education and opening up the conversation.
01:20:46.393 –> 01:21:01.873
MAGGIE: If I could say one last thing, it would be have these conversations in your circles, at your work, at your network, in small ways that you can with people in your world to start helping other people feel more comfortable coming out because representation matters.
01:21:01.873 –> 01:21:03.893
MAGGIE: So with that, thank you, everybody.
01:21:03.893 –> 01:21:08.733
MAGGIE: You will receive a recording and a bit of a summary of the call with some resources and links.
01:21:08.733 –> 01:21:09.593
MAGGIE: This was really great.
01:21:09.593 –> 01:21:10.933
MAGGIE: Have a wonderful day, everybody.
01:21:10.933 –> 01:21:11.713
MAGGIE: Thanks, panelists.
01:21:22.573 –> 01:21:24.933
SYDNEY: Please review on Apple Podcasts.
01:21:31.352 –> 01:21:33.052
JESSICA: goburrows.com.
